Pay securely with an Android smartphone, completely without Google services: This is the plan being developed by the newly founded industry consortium led by the German Volla Systeme GmbH. It is an open-source alternative to Google Play Integrity. This proprietary interface decides on Android smartphones with Google Play services whether banking, government, or wallet apps are allowed to run on a smartphone.
Furthermore, a peer review process is planned, through which the consortium members will mutually check and certify their operating systems and smartphone or tablet models. “This is intended to create transparency and replace trust with traceability.”
Still doesn’t sound very open.
I should be able to tell my bank to only trust devices running an OS signed by the grapheneos key, and more importantly I should be able to tell them to trust an OS signed by my key.
Edit: I don’t mean to shit on this too hard. It might be the best next step.
It is kinda insane though that we’ve had public/private keys since the internet started walking and somehow we end up with all these over-complicated or pointless ways to use them.
Decentralized systems are more difficult to understand, and also inconvenient.
Also, very hard to monetize.
Therefore, capitalism converts the issue into walled garden approach. Easy for rubes to use, nobody bats an eye.
I don’t get why it has to be that complicated anyway. I should be able to just give them my key, why does a OS or device vendor need to be a part of it? When I get a card I need to verify my identity somehow, times past that was me going to the bank, signing a form and showing my ID card. Fucking Tim Apple or Satya McGoogle didn’t have a role in that, why should they now?
Sidenote; I know Satya Slopella is Microsoft but I don’t frankly care to learn what the pedo in charge of Google is called.
When I get a card I need to verify my identity somehow, times past that was me going to the bank, signing a form and showing my ID card. Fucking Tim Apple or Satya McGoogle didn’t have a role in that, why should they now?
The government did though in supplying said ID, so there was a centralised trustable organisation that the bank could depend on for verification.
Exactly. After that, the bank should accept that I wish to pay with my own device without Google, Apple, or Samsung having a say.
They don’t need GAS approval for me to pay my bills on my computer. Nor to make online purchases on it. Why is it suddenly required on my phone? It’s idiotic.
If I say that my device is okay, that’s all that should be required.
I see this topic come up often in conversations about degoogled Android and it makes me wonder what if anything I’m missing out on by just using cash/card for payments, cause not once have I been at checkout and thought to myself “man, I wish I could do this with my phone instead” but people talk about this like it’s almost a dealbreaker that makes it hard for them to seriously consider switching to Graphene or Lineage or whatever.
In a lot of counties banks are becoming mobile first. Want to login in the browser? Authenticate with your mobile app to approve. Don’t have a mobile phone with the requisites of the bank? Well, go to the branch, take a ticket, wait and then tell them what you want to do with your money. It’s not just about paying, banks are moving online authentication to be dependent on Google or Apple, whatever poison you pick.
This seems like same shit different flies. Still dependent on some centralised approval which doesn’t help openness and security. We need alternatives to the duopoly but this ain’t it, chief.
Right there with you. Access to my money relying on a device that needs to be charged is just stupid. I’m stranded somewhere, my phone runs out of battery, suddenly I have zero dollars. No thanks.
I keep a single bill in my phone case for emergencies (be it an actual emergency or I just want to eat at some place which only takes cash).
If my phone battery runs out I’m stranded anyway, since I can’t call anyone or use my public transport ticket.
Im truly struggling to understand what you mean. If your phone battery runs out, and you cant call anyone, do your legs and mouth suddenly stop working? Walk to a bus/train/transport station, use your words and pay for a trip home. obviously, if your money relies on the phone battery, yes you are truly stranded. But if you have a card or cash, you are not. It’s quite simple. I guess you just have no imagination and can’t fathom that people existed without phones or something? I’m asking in earnest, what do you mean?
India primarily uses Phones to pay. And I’m sure there’s a big community there that uses custom ROMs.
It’s the hardware, and it feels like mobile in particular is intentionally designed to not be modular. I suspect that is by design to keep it under control of the big companies.
I agree, with the caveat that it’s very nice to be able to pay with my phone/ watch if/when forget my wallet, rather than having to go back home to get it.
I don’t use the phone that often as a debit /credit bank card but I use it for payments (bills invoices etc.), paying on line, transferring money to people and accounts, and just managing accounts. The phone app is very useful for those functions - especially if the alternative is going into a bank and queuing.
A phone OS that will not work with banking apps is not really a contemporary solution. iOS or Android are the only reliable options at the moment in the US/Europe - Iiuc Open Source Android has to sandbox Google Play for banking apps to work so that’s not viable long-term solution, as Google will only make that more difficult in the future.
Given the issues with the judges at ICC and US payment systems, building an alternative to Google and Apple is a high priority
My bank (Monzo) doesn’t even offer an alternative way to interact or sign up except through the smartphone app.
GrapheneOS is critical of this initiative here and I think their criticism has merit. This simply moves the gatekeeper from Google to a handful of OEM’s who won’t let you use anything other than their blessed OS’s.
Has the GrapheneOS team ever, once, been supportive of ANY other custom ROM initiative? I ask this as someone with both a GOS Pixel10 and a FairPhone 6 running /e/ on my desk this week.
For as good as their security approach is, their constant shit talking of others also making efforts to free us from big tech helps no-one.
Oh the irony of using the phrase “blessed OS’s” coming from the GOS camp.
I wouldn’t characterize myself as “the GOS camp” (I use LineageOS) I just happen to agree with them sometimes, and this is one of those times.
I do imagine this response is to some degree influenced by their beef with /e/ (an OS I don’t have a high opinion of either, but for other reasons). It just seems to me that people see “not google” and think it’s a good thing, but a gatekeeper determining which OS you are allowed to use with what apps is fundamentally a bad idea even if it’s not google.
Yeah it seems they really let perfect be the enemy of the good.
Agree. This type of systems are not even necessary.
One or more neutral organizations could exist certifying devices and operating systems without providing a centralized API. Those organizations could simply provide signed releases with the roots of trust, revoked keys and operating system key fingerprints. Apps could use multiple different certifying organizations. This is already something Android’s hardware attestation API fully supports today.
Then why doesn’t GrapheneOS offer that alternative to banks etc
Because you can’t unilaterally just save credit card information and use it for payments. Your bank has to support and approve the app/service.
This is huge. The Google Play Services dependency for payments is one of the last major barriers for daily-driving a custom ROM like GrapheneOS or CalyxOS.
Currently if you want NFC payments without Google, your options are basically:
- Your bank’s website (clunky)
- Physical cards (works but defeats the purpose)
An open standard for payments would also benefit Linux phones (PinePhone, Librem) where Google services aren’t even an option.
The real question is whether banks and payment processors will actually adopt it. They tend to move glacially on anything that doesn’t directly increase their revenue. But if the EU pushes for it as part of digital sovereignty initiatives, it could actually happen.
I agree it would be good to have third party integrity checks to not require Google Services etc. as part of the chain.
In GrapheneOS, many Google Play integrity check pass, but payments still do not work. You are notified when an app uses the integrity API, but probably only because they have spent a bunch of work sandboxing Play Services. This is what you see when you look at those details:
I guess the obvious problem is that so many apps rely on Google Services, such as for payments, opening the store, checking for integrity etc. On stock android, you can’t pick and choose these services separately or use third party ones, unlike using a third party keyboard, for example. Everything is one big proprietary, data guzzling lump.
Honestly if there was an alternate and functional phone/OS/app store that early adopters who are a little technical can embrace, it would be the #1 platform in under 5 years. People in the know are chomping at the bit to get away from these big monopolzed platforms, and once it gains steam and polish, people will flock to it.
I think it’s cool trying to figure out a way to do this without google, but it still won’t solve the fact that credit card payments aren’t private and are linked to your identity. As always cash is the way to go.
Also if you are still going to have a credit card (I mean fare I have one too) why not just use a physical card rather than paying on your phone?
Really hope this happens
I don’t think I understand this. I don’t actually want to pay with my phone, so thats a non-problem to me, but when I can access my bank with a browser on any pc in the world, why do they need attestation on a mobile? I dont see why the requirement is inconsistent.
I think it’s rather about NFC-powered (i.e. “tap your phone”) payments. These are automatic, which comes with different security issues.
Seems like a strong argument for dedicated hardware to me. Something card shaped 😉
Sure, but it is way more convenient for many to tap the phone, and when there’s demand, there must be the supply.
After all, making privacy and security convenient is the number 1 issue in the adoption of good practices by regular users.
PIX neles
This works be fantastic and I might actually switch at that point.
Why not just use cash? Untraceable, nearly ubiquitous acceptance, are they just too lazy to go to the bank?
A lot of places don’t take cash.
Well luckily that hasn’t been my experience. Only time I ever saw that was at the hight of the pandemic our local computer shop didn’t.
