The disappointing tea.xyz
connortumbleson.com
I got a pull request from "tea.xyz" related individual and unraveled a mess of a disappointing project.

Yet another “brilliant” scheme from a cryptobro. Naturally this caused a gold-rush for scammers who outsourced random people via the gig economy to open PRs for this yml file (example)

      • jeffhykin@lemm.ee
        17·
        7 months ago

        I have read the 1.2 spec (I’m trying to make a round trip parser for JS, and I do maintainance on a fork of the rumel yaml python package). I actually think its very well thought out, with things I hadn’t considered like future extensibility, streaming applications, and data structures in many languages.

        The diagrams, color coding, and less-formailty of the spec was much appreciated, compared to something like the ECMA Script spec, which reads like a math textbook had a child with a legal document.

        I’m not saying YAML is perfect; round trip (the thing I’m working on) is nearly impossible because it wasn’t a design goal. It has a few too many features, I’ve never seen a declaration in the wild, but it does a good job at accomplishing the creators goals, and the additional features basically only slow down parser-implementers like me. I often pick it because of the tag support, which I’ve struggled to find an equivalent for in other serialization languages. I use anchors in recursive data structures, and complex keys for serializing complex data structures (not human readable). The “document end” marker has been nice when I’m worried about detecting partial-writes. And the merge key is nice for config files.

        The application/perspective matters. Yaml might be bad for you but its not bad for everyone.

        • toastal@lemmy.ml
          08·
          7 months ago

          Even if anchors are pretty novel… I’ve watched myself & others fail for things that seem like they should be simple like scalars, quoting, & indentation rules all for being confusing (while failing to understand how/why the tab character isn’t supported).

          • theherk@lemmy.world
            4·
            7 months ago

            That sounds like a skill issue. Something isn’t bad because you don’t understand it. Suggesting quoting is an issue for yaml is beyond the pale; it happens to be an issue everywhere.

            • toastal@lemmy.ml
              1·
              7 months ago

              Most languages require you to put quotes around strings as the norm… breaking that is part of what causes all of the confusion in the first place. Better design upfront would lead to less common errors. I have way more quoting issues in YAML than I do JSON, Nix, Nickel, Dhall, etc. because they aren’t trying to be cute with strings.

            • jeffhykin@lemm.ee
              1·
              7 months ago

              Despite my love of yaml. I actually think he has a small point with unquoted strings. I teach students and see their struggles. Bash also does unquoted strings and basically all students go years and years without realizing

              cat --help
cat "--help"
# ^ same thing

cat *
cat "*"
# ^ not same thing

cat $thing
cat "$thing"
# ^ similar but not the same

              To know the difference between special and normal-but-no-quotes you have to know literally every special symbol. And, for example, its rare to realize the -- in --help, isn’t special at a language level, its only special at a convention level.

              Same thing can happen in yaml files, but actually a little worse I’d say. In bash all the “special” things are at least symbols. But in yaml there are more special cases. Imagine editing this kind of a list:

              js_keywords:
- if
- else
- while
- break
- continue
- import
- from
- default
- class
- const
- var
- let
- new
- async
- function
- undefined
- null
- true
- false
- Nan
- Infinity

              Three of those are not strings. Syntax highlighting can help (which is why I don’t think its a real issue). But still “why are three not strings? Well … just because”. AKA there isn’t a syntax pattern, there’s just a hardcoded list of names that need to be memorized. What is actually challeging is, unless students start with a proper yaml tutorial, or see examples of quotes in the config, its not obvious that quotes will solve the problem (students think "true" behaves like "\"true\""). So even when they see true is highlighted funny, they don’t really know what to do about it. I’ve seem some try stuff like \true.

              Still doesn’t mean yaml is bad, every language has edge cases.

              • theherk@lemmy.world
                1·
                7 months ago

                While the subjective assessment that quote handling in yaml is worse than bash is understandable, it is really just two of many many cases where quotes complicate things. And for a pretty good reason. They are used to isolate strings in many languages, even prose. They, therefore, always get special handling in lexical analysis. Understanding which languages use single quotes, double quotes, backticks, heredocs, etc and when to use them is really just part of the game or the struggle I guess.