I don’t think decriminalization has stopped the problem either, with stealing happening in places where it has been decriminalized. Like mentioned, it’s not a life or death situation here. The reason for stealing is not having enough money for drugs and unless those are given for free, I really don’t see a situation where there wouldn’t be an issue with addicts stealing to make money for drugs. We can only try to alleviate the issue, but at the point where there’s ample other opportunities for them, it’s much easier not to tolerate stealing.
Maybe if this was the US I’d have more sympathy. From what I’ve heard it’s a real dog eat dog world there. But here it’s not really the same.
It’s hard to seek out proper help when you’re worried that you’ll be arrested/fined just for being an addict.
Not sure how high of a bar there is in Finland for seeking help. It’s not really something you as an addict you have to seek out either, since it’s constantly promoted by social services and people working directly with the addicts and in the addict communities. So people know there is help and it’s pretty low bar and approachable. And the police really aren’t after the addicts like in many other places. Police treat them either as social cases or as a nuisance than criminals and don’t really go after them. Social stigma might be a higher barrier or cultural stuff about asking or accepting help.
And of course you can’t really force people to get help. I know it might be shocking to some but a lot of social workers and even ex addicts consider prison a good thing for addicts because that’s the place where finally they’ve gone into recovery programs and such. But you can’t of course just jail all addicts and push them into the programs either.
Except it literally is life or death in the case of withdrawal. Those who are addicted things like like heroin, or even have a severe enough addiction to alcohol can die once they’re in a certain part of the withdrawal process.
And just because prison was the rock bottom that some addicts needed to reform doesn’t mean it’s the best option. Honestly prison is one of the worst possible options because it leads to a positive feedback loop of criminality. Addicts are automatically labeled as criminals on arrest and then have to fight against that stigma for the rest of their life. So of course they’d do things like turn back to crime, because their options are automatically limited on arrest.
I won’t sit here and act like I have all of the solutions. I don’t have all of the solutions and I’m just some guy. But so long as addiction is seen as a criminal offense we will fail addicts every single time. We need the large scale social programs Finland has currently along with a strong re-evaluation of how to handle drug related crimes.
Except it literally is life or death in the case of withdrawal. Those who are addicted things like like heroin, or even have a severe enough addiction to alcohol can die once they’re in a certain part of the withdrawal process.
What do you think the replacement drugs do exactly?
And just because prison was the rock bottom that some addicts needed to reform doesn’t mean it’s the best option. Honestly prison is one of the worst possible options because it leads to a positive feedback loop of criminality. Addicts are automatically labeled as criminals on arrest and then have to fight against that stigma for the rest of their life. So of course they’d do things like turn back to crime, because their options are automatically limited on arrest.
Nobody was saying it’s the best option. It’s just what some felt they needed to finally break the cycle. Are you how familiar with Finnish prisons?
I won’t sit here and act like I have all of the solutions. I don’t have all of the solutions and I’m just some guy. But so long as addiction is seen as a criminal offense we will fail addicts every single time. We need the large scale social programs Finland has currently along with a strong re-evaluation of how to handle drug related crimes.
I don’t think decriminalization has really stopped addicts from committing crime. It’s a bit like homelessness here, you might offer all kinds of services and have housing available to everyone, but you can’t make everyone accept that help. Might help with the number of addicts, but won’t stop some from turning to crime to make money for drugs. Free drugs would probably do away with a lot of crime but then you’d probably have a shitload of ODs.
The replacement drugs only work with someone inside the system. There are a lot of people outside of or at odds with the system because of how it levies criminality against addicts. And again: criminality that is automatically assumed acts as a positive feedback loop leading to addicts committing legitimate crime.
I’m not familiar with Finnish prisons. I’ve been told that they’re better than US prisons and I definitely believe that much. But still, someone with an issue of addiction shouldn’t be going to prison at all in the first place. That was the main point I was trying to make there.
And I’m not advocating for anything like free drugs. What I’m advocating for is a more psychological approach to handing addiction. Addiction itself is a psychological disease, and it needs to be treated like that. Not like it’s some sort of moral failure: like the system insists upon.
I do not think we will find consensus on this, so this is where I’ll take my leave.
The replacement drugs only work with someone inside the system. There are a lot of people outside of or at odds with the system because of how it levies criminality against addicts. And again: criminality that is automatically assumed acts as a positive feedback loop leading to addicts committing legitimate crime.
I don’t think you’re very familiar with how the situations about addicts is in Finland. Addicts aren’t really outside of the “system” here in a way that’d prevent them from having access to replacement drugs. It’s easy to get them to avoid issues such as we are talking here.
I don’t think the reason some steal is about access. Nor do I think it’s about fear of being branded a criminal since you’re putting yourself into much bigger risk and making yourself into an actual criminal by stealing to make money instead of just going to get replacement stuff.
I’m not familiar with Finnish prisons. I’ve been told that they’re better than US prisons and I definitely believe that much. But still, someone with an issue of addiction shouldn’t be going to prison at all in the first place. That was the main point I was trying to make there.
I agree with it in the sense that they shouldn’t be going there just for addiction or drug use, which they don’t. You won’t go to jail for that and even fines for using are rare. It’s the criminality around it (trying to get money for drugs, dealing drugs) that get people convicted.
Finnish prisons are interesting in that often people are put into so called “open prisons” that are very lax and you get to spend a lot of time outside the prison and whatnot. The intention is rehabilitation and it’s a good place to get someone hesitant about programs to get into one. But of course the point isn’t to jail them to force their them into programs. It’s always better for people to do that outside of prison, before things escalate to them being jailed.
And I’m not advocating for anything like free drugs. What I’m advocating for is a more psychological approach to handing addiction. Addiction itself is a psychological disease, and it needs to be treated like that. Not like it’s some sort of moral failure: like the system insists upon.
I think that’s how it usually is treated here. As a disease and as a social issue rather than issue of criminality and such.
I do not think we will find consensus on this, so this is where I’ll take my leave.
I don’t think that’s always necessary, discussion even with disagreements can be useful. But I respect your decision.
I don’t think decriminalization has stopped the problem either, with stealing happening in places where it has been decriminalized. Like mentioned, it’s not a life or death situation here. The reason for stealing is not having enough money for drugs and unless those are given for free, I really don’t see a situation where there wouldn’t be an issue with addicts stealing to make money for drugs. We can only try to alleviate the issue, but at the point where there’s ample other opportunities for them, it’s much easier not to tolerate stealing.
Maybe if this was the US I’d have more sympathy. From what I’ve heard it’s a real dog eat dog world there. But here it’s not really the same.
Not sure how high of a bar there is in Finland for seeking help. It’s not really something you as an addict you have to seek out either, since it’s constantly promoted by social services and people working directly with the addicts and in the addict communities. So people know there is help and it’s pretty low bar and approachable. And the police really aren’t after the addicts like in many other places. Police treat them either as social cases or as a nuisance than criminals and don’t really go after them. Social stigma might be a higher barrier or cultural stuff about asking or accepting help.
And of course you can’t really force people to get help. I know it might be shocking to some but a lot of social workers and even ex addicts consider prison a good thing for addicts because that’s the place where finally they’ve gone into recovery programs and such. But you can’t of course just jail all addicts and push them into the programs either.
Except it literally is life or death in the case of withdrawal. Those who are addicted things like like heroin, or even have a severe enough addiction to alcohol can die once they’re in a certain part of the withdrawal process.
And just because prison was the rock bottom that some addicts needed to reform doesn’t mean it’s the best option. Honestly prison is one of the worst possible options because it leads to a positive feedback loop of criminality. Addicts are automatically labeled as criminals on arrest and then have to fight against that stigma for the rest of their life. So of course they’d do things like turn back to crime, because their options are automatically limited on arrest.
I won’t sit here and act like I have all of the solutions. I don’t have all of the solutions and I’m just some guy. But so long as addiction is seen as a criminal offense we will fail addicts every single time. We need the large scale social programs Finland has currently along with a strong re-evaluation of how to handle drug related crimes.
What do you think the replacement drugs do exactly?
Nobody was saying it’s the best option. It’s just what some felt they needed to finally break the cycle. Are you how familiar with Finnish prisons?
I don’t think decriminalization has really stopped addicts from committing crime. It’s a bit like homelessness here, you might offer all kinds of services and have housing available to everyone, but you can’t make everyone accept that help. Might help with the number of addicts, but won’t stop some from turning to crime to make money for drugs. Free drugs would probably do away with a lot of crime but then you’d probably have a shitload of ODs.
The replacement drugs only work with someone inside the system. There are a lot of people outside of or at odds with the system because of how it levies criminality against addicts. And again: criminality that is automatically assumed acts as a positive feedback loop leading to addicts committing legitimate crime.
I’m not familiar with Finnish prisons. I’ve been told that they’re better than US prisons and I definitely believe that much. But still, someone with an issue of addiction shouldn’t be going to prison at all in the first place. That was the main point I was trying to make there.
And I’m not advocating for anything like free drugs. What I’m advocating for is a more psychological approach to handing addiction. Addiction itself is a psychological disease, and it needs to be treated like that. Not like it’s some sort of moral failure: like the system insists upon.
I do not think we will find consensus on this, so this is where I’ll take my leave.
I don’t think you’re very familiar with how the situations about addicts is in Finland. Addicts aren’t really outside of the “system” here in a way that’d prevent them from having access to replacement drugs. It’s easy to get them to avoid issues such as we are talking here.
I don’t think the reason some steal is about access. Nor do I think it’s about fear of being branded a criminal since you’re putting yourself into much bigger risk and making yourself into an actual criminal by stealing to make money instead of just going to get replacement stuff.
I agree with it in the sense that they shouldn’t be going there just for addiction or drug use, which they don’t. You won’t go to jail for that and even fines for using are rare. It’s the criminality around it (trying to get money for drugs, dealing drugs) that get people convicted.
Finnish prisons are interesting in that often people are put into so called “open prisons” that are very lax and you get to spend a lot of time outside the prison and whatnot. The intention is rehabilitation and it’s a good place to get someone hesitant about programs to get into one. But of course the point isn’t to jail them to force their them into programs. It’s always better for people to do that outside of prison, before things escalate to them being jailed.
I think that’s how it usually is treated here. As a disease and as a social issue rather than issue of criminality and such.
I don’t think that’s always necessary, discussion even with disagreements can be useful. But I respect your decision.