I feel like using the command line should really be a basic skill taught in school. That would be way more worthwhile than teaching people how to use like microsoft office
Okay, but, like… No? How delusional do you have to be to think something you never have to touch in Windows, macOS, iOS, or Android (and probably less and less going forward in desktop Linux, an already extremely niche OS) is more important than learning how to use a word processor, make presentations, or work with spreadsheets? (Microsoft Office specifically is used because it’s the industry standard as part of a vicious cycle, but not the school’s fault or problem). Do you, like, exist in the real world outside a very specific industry/set of interests?
I don’t think any tool must be taught in school because they’re commonly used. So neither terminal or ms office need be per se. However, scripting, with bash/python/etc could be a good brain workout for the logic.
Anyone can learn to use an office suite on their own in very little time so there’s no reason to teach it. Being able to use the command line is a valuable skill that makes you a way better computer user no matter what you’re doing and it’s one that a lot of people are missing these days. I don’t think you can really say you know how to use a computer if you can only use it in the very specific ways someone happens to have made a gui for
Anyone can learn to use an office suite on their own in very little time
Okay, should I say the same about a terminal then? I took a single-semester Linux course and had the terminal down pat. Meanwhile, I grew up learning how to use an office suite day in and day out in K–12 and still find new ways to improve my workflow in one.
so there’s no reason to teach it
Besides the fact that it’s a cornerstore of modern society that any white-collar professional will routinely have to work with, sure. (If you want to pull the “we shouldn’t be turning our kids into workers” card for why teaching them basic job skills is bad, things like word processing and spreadsheets are/can be very useful outside of industry too.)
Being able to use the command line is a valuable skill that makes you a way better computer user no matter what you’re doing
Okay, like… kind of? It gives you a better mindset, but in terms of a specific application, unless you’re in a niche part of industry or have niche interests, you will never in your life need to touch the terminal at this point. You will be just fine. Even as a power user, there are few problems normal users would face where I look at the terminal and see a shortcut to something that would be tedious in the GUI – and fuck knows most people use their desktop OS less than I do if they even have one anymore.
and it’s one that a lot of people are missing these days.
Because as noted, no major OS except desktop Linux makes you interact with the terminal in any meaningful way – and even desktop Linux is changing that because designers understand that, while the terminal is a godsend for power users, everyday users have no compelling reason to deal with it.
I don’t think you can really say you know how to use a computer if you can only use it in the very specific ways someone happens to have made a gui for
This is elitist bullshit that isn’t reflected in the real world. It’s not 1992 anymore. If people can efficiently complete the workflows they need via a GUI and never touch the terminal, then good for them; they know how to use a computer. This comment is so profoundly out-of-touch with how most actual humans live their lives that I feel like I’ve tripped and fallen into another reality.
This is elitist bullshit that isn’t reflected in the real world.
It truly is. They are literally just doing the infinite abstraction argument where they pretend only the level of abstraction they’re at is valid, when I could easily say that they don’t really know how to use a computer if they can’t compile their own C Code or program directly in assembly.
Linux doesn’t “make you interact with the terminal.” Many linux users interact with the terminal because it’s a better tool for many purposes-- not just niche ones as you suggest. Your argument leans heavily on popularity: what most people are doing, but that’s kind of the point of the original comment. People are taught on software and OSs owned and pushed by private companies. It creates such a dependency that it’s hard for people to imagine how one can succeed without them. Knowing the terminal can help one understand GUIs better, and makes it easier to imagine building new ones or modifying existing ones. It also allows a person to recognise when a GUI is unnecessary and a task can be completed faster by keeping your hands on the keyboard and working in the terminal.
I took a single-semester Linux course and had the terminal down pat.
And this is where I stop reading.
EDIT: Seriously guys, this statement reminds me of when the little girl in the original Jurassic Park is like “this is unix, I know this” and then starts flying around the park virtually using “Unix” 3D style.
This is such elitist nonsense. What specialty tricks do you think an every day user would possibly need to know that they couldn’t learn in a single semester.
The most interesting part of this comment is that you could not answer the question, and instead needed to deflect, and answer a question that wasn’t asked.
This just goes to show that my question was indeed an on point criticism of the previous take.
Well yeah, because I did. What else is there? I knew how to do everything I would ever need to do in the Linux command line. Anything I need to do beyond fundamental interactions, what else do I need to know besides how to 1) find a relevant CLI application and 2) read the man page to write a command? I even knew how to write basic shell scripts, which I would argue goes beyond “using the command line” and strays into “using a scripting language”. After that course, I never struggled with the Linux CLI because it taught me how to reason about it; is there a problem with that statement?
Is the timeframe and the setting the problem? Because I’m talking about going from never having used Linux or a CLI to being fluent with both, and the class was still a blowoff.
Well, I’ll settle for basic computer literacy as I still run into college students without a working knowledge of file systems… buuuut one would argue it’s worth covering the basic building blocks of how all this works.
I’ve heard similar arguments for teaching people the fundamentals of how data works too, as we have data harvested from us at alarming rates and knowledge is power.
I feel like using the command line should really be a basic skill taught in school. That would be way more worthwhile than teaching people how to use like microsoft office
Most teachers are already glad when their students graduate with functional literacy and without bullet holes.
Okay, but, like… No? How delusional do you have to be to think something you never have to touch in Windows, macOS, iOS, or Android (and probably less and less going forward in desktop Linux, an already extremely niche OS) is more important than learning how to use a word processor, make presentations, or work with spreadsheets? (Microsoft Office specifically is used because it’s the industry standard as part of a vicious cycle, but not the school’s fault or problem). Do you, like, exist in the real world outside a very specific industry/set of interests?
Scammers use the terminal to trick people into thinking they’ve been hacked, so that’s one reason to at least know it’s not magic.
You don’t think scammers don’t also use other tools?
This is a ridiculous reason to replace more useful general skills with less useful specific skills (for the majority).
I don’t think any tool must be taught in school because they’re commonly used. So neither terminal or ms office need be per se. However, scripting, with bash/python/etc could be a good brain workout for the logic.
Anyone can learn to use an office suite on their own in very little time so there’s no reason to teach it. Being able to use the command line is a valuable skill that makes you a way better computer user no matter what you’re doing and it’s one that a lot of people are missing these days. I don’t think you can really say you know how to use a computer if you can only use it in the very specific ways someone happens to have made a gui for
My sweet summer child, if only that were the case…
Okay, should I say the same about a terminal then? I took a single-semester Linux course and had the terminal down pat. Meanwhile, I grew up learning how to use an office suite day in and day out in K–12 and still find new ways to improve my workflow in one.
Besides the fact that it’s a cornerstore of modern society that any white-collar professional will routinely have to work with, sure. (If you want to pull the “we shouldn’t be turning our kids into workers” card for why teaching them basic job skills is bad, things like word processing and spreadsheets are/can be very useful outside of industry too.)
Okay, like… kind of? It gives you a better mindset, but in terms of a specific application, unless you’re in a niche part of industry or have niche interests, you will never in your life need to touch the terminal at this point. You will be just fine. Even as a power user, there are few problems normal users would face where I look at the terminal and see a shortcut to something that would be tedious in the GUI – and fuck knows most people use their desktop OS less than I do if they even have one anymore.
Because as noted, no major OS except desktop Linux makes you interact with the terminal in any meaningful way – and even desktop Linux is changing that because designers understand that, while the terminal is a godsend for power users, everyday users have no compelling reason to deal with it.
This is elitist bullshit that isn’t reflected in the real world. It’s not 1992 anymore. If people can efficiently complete the workflows they need via a GUI and never touch the terminal, then good for them; they know how to use a computer. This comment is so profoundly out-of-touch with how most actual humans live their lives that I feel like I’ve tripped and fallen into another reality.
It truly is. They are literally just doing the infinite abstraction argument where they pretend only the level of abstraction they’re at is valid, when I could easily say that they don’t really know how to use a computer if they can’t compile their own C Code or program directly in assembly.
Linux doesn’t “make you interact with the terminal.” Many linux users interact with the terminal because it’s a better tool for many purposes-- not just niche ones as you suggest. Your argument leans heavily on popularity: what most people are doing, but that’s kind of the point of the original comment. People are taught on software and OSs owned and pushed by private companies. It creates such a dependency that it’s hard for people to imagine how one can succeed without them. Knowing the terminal can help one understand GUIs better, and makes it easier to imagine building new ones or modifying existing ones. It also allows a person to recognise when a GUI is unnecessary and a task can be completed faster by keeping your hands on the keyboard and working in the terminal.
And this is where I stop reading.
EDIT: Seriously guys, this statement reminds me of when the little girl in the original Jurassic Park is like “this is unix, I know this” and then starts flying around the park virtually using “Unix” 3D style.
This is such elitist nonsense. What specialty tricks do you think an every day user would possibly need to know that they couldn’t learn in a single semester.
Dude, bash is a whole language.
I’ve been using shells for over twenty years and I still pick up new tricks.
The most interesting part of this comment is that you could not answer the question, and instead needed to deflect, and answer a question that wasn’t asked.
This just goes to show that my question was indeed an on point criticism of the previous take.
Well yeah, because I did. What else is there? I knew how to do everything I would ever need to do in the Linux command line. Anything I need to do beyond fundamental interactions, what else do I need to know besides how to 1) find a relevant CLI application and 2) read the man page to write a command? I even knew how to write basic shell scripts, which I would argue goes beyond “using the command line” and strays into “using a scripting language”. After that course, I never struggled with the Linux CLI because it taught me how to reason about it; is there a problem with that statement?
Is the timeframe and the setting the problem? Because I’m talking about going from never having used Linux or a CLI to being fluent with both, and the class was still a blowoff.
Well, I’ll settle for basic computer literacy as I still run into college students without a working knowledge of file systems… buuuut one would argue it’s worth covering the basic building blocks of how all this works.
I’ve heard similar arguments for teaching people the fundamentals of how data works too, as we have data harvested from us at alarming rates and knowledge is power.