Dbzero Governance Vote Post https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/63525728
Ahoy mateys!
A few of our users have recently pointed out that a lot of the pro-Zionist accounts on the fediverse nowadays seem to come from the feddit.org instance.
But whatever the excuse happens to be, they need to do better imo. Israel is currently the most violent, fascist and genocidal nation state in the Middle East (if you exclude the US military bases there). And yet feddit.org seems to regard the Palestinians fighting against Israel’s ongoing illegal occupation of their land as the real terrorists. …
More context
Our instance already voted to ban pro-Zionist accounts (see https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/60585441 for reference) and the rule that was implemented is here: Golden Rule #8.
As further context, you can find relevant comments and discussion in this post by a banned feddit admin in MoG (that fact they chose to post in MoG is in itself quite telling), and this post about their defederation from quokk.au over anti-semitism allegations has recently become active again. …
Note 2: If you think feddit.org deserves a full instance ban instead, or have alternative suggestions, then please leave your comments below. If enough people think that’s the better option, then we’ll do that instead.
In the end the Post had around 70% of support by dbzer0 users, who in the comments also called for defederation.
Here is a Link to Dbzer0 instances tab https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/instances where if you go to blocked instances you can see fedddit.org is now defederated
i dont think feddit has made a post now, but when they do i will add it
This all stems from a fundamental misunderstanding that no one seems to be interested in clearing up.
The original post that brought the allegations of feddit being zionist to more people is this one, and the one that originated the allegations is this one.
The feddit.org admin inside explicitly states that the removal of the comment being talked about by the original thread is not about pro-zionism or anti-semitism.
Now what does the person claim it is about? That seems to be majorly ignored. Let me rephrase it in my own words.
In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it, because there were unfortunately a lot of people still denying it or not believing it. One of those rules is that no statement may be made that makes national socialism seem better than it was. So something you can’t say for example is “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!”. This seems extremely weird from an outside (the person saying it’s) perspective, because obviously, yes, the tactics Trump uses are directly borrowed from national socialism.
However, if you look at national socialism as a whole, it was much worse than just ICE. Millions were killed etc.
Now, the person who makes the statement “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!” is obviously using it to express that ICE is terrible. But if you want to look at it from a certain way (which German law likes to do) it’s also saying that they’re roughly equal, which, since Trump and ICE is currently not quite at the level of full national socialism, would minimize the severity of national socialism by bringing it “down” to the same level as the Trump regime and ICE.
Obviously, from a perspective of a person today, this seems ridiculous, because the current threat is ICE and not national socialism, so who cares about “how national socialism is talked about exactly”?! Isn’t it much more important to make sure that ICE is taken appropriately seriously? And you would of course be right. But the stance is that the ends do not justify the means, and it is very much possible to fight against ICE without comparing it to the whole of national socialism.
This is what is being talked about by the mods/admins. It has nothing to do with either anti-semitism or anti-zionism.
Now, if you say something like “Trump’s ICE resembles early national socialism!”, that is a completely fine statement to make in the eyes of the law. You are actually comparing ICE to what it actually is, “early [stages of] national socialism”, and not “national socialism [in general]”.
Feelings are running high, even as I type these words, I can imagine it. But please try to think about this stance for a moment and try to see that it is not Trump ICE apologist, or trying to minimize what ICE is doing. It is simply trying to pay heed to two important issues at the same time, of which one has much more immediacy and current real impact on people’s lives than the other.
I used this ICE example on purpose because it is even nearer than the genocide in Gaza. And because it is farther away from “full national socialism style genocide”. I hope I could make the thinking in this example clear, and I hope at least a modicum of rationality can be attributed to this.
And now let’s go back to the original zionist accusations. The original comment was removed because of the last part of it, which said “Providing material support to Israel is no different from providing material support to Nazi Germany”. As much as people don’t want to see it, the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany. The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful. In Gaza, there is genocide happening, there is a power differential, and Palestinians need to fight back, but there is simply no rational denying that it’s not the same as the genocide in Nazi Germany.
Obviously what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Israel needs to be condemned, but what they’re doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany. And thus you could argue that comparing the situation in Gaza to national socialism is minimizing the severity of national socialism. And thus the same kind of argument applies as in the previous example with ICE, it just is even less understandable for a person who didn’t know/understand/agree with this argument.
I’m basically sure I’ll be condemned as a zionist now, or whatever, go ahead.
Last I checked, the genocidal state of Israel is actually using weapons to vaporize Palestinians, thus leaving not even a trace of a war crime. Would you like to amend your statement?
You know full well that this is not relevant to the point I was making, and seems like arguing in bad faith. If so, then please reconsider being kind and rational.
If you are genuine, then: I hoped it was very obvious that I know that some of what Israel is doing is as bad, and worse than what happened in the Holocaust. That does not mean that the scale is the same, or that the situation leading up to this is the same. While very clear parallels can be seen, and the direction this is going is very clear as well, it is simply false that the genocide in Gaza is even in the same order of magnitude as the Holocaust yet. That does not mean that the genocide in Gaza isn’t absolutely terrible, what I’m saying is that the Holocaust was just that bad. Is that enough amendment?
Look up what the term ‘order of magnitude’ means and please absorb the -fact- that you are wrong in this statement. The genocide in Palestine is literally the same order of magnitude as the holocaust.
Then look up the term ‘lampshading’ and refer back to your original comment at the beginning of this thread.
Crying preemptively about how people are going to call you a nazi doesn’t make you any less of a nazi.
As someone with a relative who died in a Nazi death camp, I resoundingly disagree. The scale may be relatively smaller, given that they’re attempting to steal a much smaller area of land for their Lebensraum, but the level of evil is the same.
Look into the story of Muhammed Bhar or Hind Rijab and tell me it’s not. I’ll tell you your soul is compromised.
I absolutely agree with you, in fact I even said somewhere else in these comments that some of the stuff Israel is doing is on the same level or worse than what happened in Nazi Germany.
However, you said it literally yourself, it’s not on the same scale (yet).
Also, if you read my original comment carefully, I’m personally not even agreeing with the way this issue is handled, in my opinion, go ahead, compare Israel to Nazis. My only goal was to create understanding, and show that no, feddit.org is not actually Zionist.
If you rely on the German standard, you’d never be able to call a genocide a genocide until its fully executed.
Which obviously supports those committing the genocide.
Have you really not seen me multiple times calling the genocide in Gaza a genocide? The ability to recognize the genocide in Gaza as a genocide is very much there, you really can’t see it?
Look at the response in context of Feddit. Its not a critique of you, per se, its a critique of the German law/ idealogical approach. Lets suggest, in your words, a full “national socialist” genocide is at least possible in this day and age. The world did no know the full extent of Germany’s action until well into the process.
If we rely on the logic of the German approach, we wouldn’t be able to call the thing a thing until its too late. The point being made is that if you wait long enough to be able to a full historical analysis, you’ve effectively become an apologist for genocide on the basis of a lack of evidence.
And I would argue that Israels actions over the previous 80 years are extremely comparable to what the National Socialists did in Germany, and in some ways, even more disgusting. Germany ran concentration camps for around 12 years. Israel has been running them for almost 80. Germany treated it as a war of extermination. Israel is running it as a war of extermination. What other than a death camp would you call Israelli detention facilities?
The only difference is that we have the opportunity to stop Israel in its tracks, now, as its becomes clear the Israelies are not going to stop until the entire Palestinian population is eliminated. Disallowing or diminishing comparisons between the most famous historical genocide and the ongoing Israeli genocide in Palestine supports genocide
The thing is called a thing and should be called a thing. I.e. genocide. All genocide needs to be stopped at almost any cost. I don’t have any capacity to argue further, so many people are saying things.
We all get why Germany has strong laws against antisemitism, given its history. That doesn’t mean German support towards Israel need to be unconditional, which is what has happened, in effect. The left, the right and the center in Germany all seem to agree on one thing… unconditional support for Israel.
You are basically taking the same line as Scholz, despite the fact Israel has proven itself to be a fascist ethnostate that seems intent on genociding all its neighbours. Anyone who is still committed to justifying or both-sidesing the Israeli genocide of Palestinians needs a smack in the head imo.
I do accept the fact you have acknowledged the genocide. But then why are you so hung up about folk making equivalences between fascist genocidal Israelis and fascist genocidal Nazis? It’s about the most obvious comparison one could make. Arguing that it’s a false equivalence is simply another way to excuse the atrocities committed by Israel. Statements like “Israel has done a few bad things, but they are nowhere near as bad as the Nazis, so you mustn’t make a direct comparison” are nothing more than genocide apologia. Just because Israel has done a “smaller” genocide (so far) doesn’t mean shit to me. Zionist ideology is just as reprehensible as Nazi ideology.
I’m not even arguing for the things you’re talking about, I’m just trying to bring some understanding. In literally none of the things I talked about, nor in what the feddit.org admins talked about, was there anything about keeping up unconditional support for Israel.
Ok. Well thats not what you are doing and its not what German law or Feddit is doing. People are trying to call a thing a thing, and are getting push back saying “You can’t call this thing that thing”.
You are doing the thing people are accusing you of; you are apologizing for genocide, not resisting it.
You again ignore that the “thing” I talk about is a “genocide”, which is what is happening, and it is one of the worst things humans can do to each other and needs to be stopped at all costs.
You insist on not trying to understand, I’m done.
No, its that you continue to insist that your “nuance” isn’t apoligism.
This isn’t a train station. No need to announce your departure. Everyone here can read your words and judge you for themselves, and they are, and they see you apologizing for genocide. You should take the time of your departure to mediate on why that might be.
Untrue: it’s a matter of accurate wording. “The evidence so far indicates they’re potentially…” or “For all we know, they could be…” gets the same idea across without violating integrity concerning degree of certainty or knowledge.
Technically & literally false: they are different. A lawyer can challenge the falsehood.
All technically correct or opinion.
Claiming shit is true before we have the evidence to justify it is invalid & another way to state you’re claiming shit you don’t actually know: you’re spouting shit. Spouting shit is fine in cool countries that respect liberty. However, Germany is not one of them. Spouting the wrong shit in Germany is legally risky: apparently, the law parses words with autistic literalism.
By punishing verbal laziness, the law doesn’t necessarily “support genocide”. It is coercing you to stop being a slob & express yourself with (annoying?) accuracy.
Only while saying the people resisting it are also wrong and doing Holocaust exceptionalism in defense of liberal zionists, lmao.
The original comment was good and correct. Supporting one settler state committing genocide is actually the same as supporting another.
I’ve never said that the people resisting their genocide were wrong to do it. You’re intentionally misinterpreting what I’m saying.
I don’t disagree with you, that’s why I tried to explain the nuance, but apparently I failed, I’m sorry about that.
No, I’m really not. You’re all over this thread repeating hasbara lies about Hamas and misrepresenting the history of “Israel” in comparison to the history of the Holocaust (you correctly include the Warsaw Ghetto in the Holocaust but appear to think the Nakba isn’t relevant).
You might actually have convinced yourself that this is principled and nuanced anti-zionism, but it’s not. You are being a zionist and I urge you to reconsider your positions on this.
You didn’t fail to explain what you mean, I understood that. Where you failed is that you are, knowingly or unknowingly, manufacturing nuance that does not exist.
Uhuh. Funny how none of that seems to apply to comparing Russia or Hamas to the Nazis…
ah yes the “im just following orders” defence the favorite of the saurkrauts.
I wonder why people compared ICE to the gestapo?
Warsaw Ghetto Uprising jews actually did fought back against being exterminated by the Nazis, or do you see them as violent extremist too?
This user is suspected to have relations to Russo-Chinese state media and Marxist sympathies, please report any suspicious behavior to https://cia.gov/
What I said had nothing to do with that. Anyway, I can’t keep up with all the stuff people are saying to me, so please excuse if I don’t elaborate further.
What I mean was in the time before the Holocaust even started.
When do you think “Israelis” started committing genocide against Palestinians? Hint: “Israel” is a settler colony.
The current one? Roughly around 1919 with the British support of an Israeli state.
That’s a fair answer. And when was Hamas founded? By comparing those two dates, you can see that it’s actually the same as Jews fighting back against the Holocaust.
I was against banning the communities, but the second link doesn’t feel like it deserved to be banned. Many examples brought up in the vote were comments that were looking for a fight, using aggressive language.
It’s also pretty telling that the vote was about banning access to communities, and after it finished, they banned the whole instance. I guess it is important to the community (or the folks that are paying to support the instance), that everyone is on the same page on this issue.
“The Jews never fought back” is certainly an incredible take, especially from a German.
Do you not understand colonialism? Of course you think history began on October 7th, 2023, but only when it concerns the actions of “Israelis”.
I’m completely aware that this originally started with the zionist invasion of palestine in the early 20th century.
From your other comment next to this one…
Do you not see how you’re not being consistent?
I do understand what you mean, however the attempted genocide that christians, jews and muslims are doing to each other is much older than any of that. You do not truly know anymore who started, the only thing I personally know is that the same way that a genocide against Palestinians needs to be stopped, so does a call for genocide against Israelis. Of course, due to other countries (including Germany) support of Israel, Palestine needs special protection and the immediate ceasing of all support to Israel.
What you do not see is that we don’t truly disagree, I’m just trying to explain one of the multi-faceted thought patterns that go on in some people’s brains. Multiple different concepts can co-exist at the same time, and do not necessarily contradict each other, like saying that the genocide in gaza needs to be stopped immediately and the genocide in Gaza and in the Holocaust not being the literal same.
Incorrect and also hasbara. This is an ahistorical orientalist fabrication that is designed to obscure the very clear and obvious colonial nature of “Israel”.
We do disagree. Your entire view of the so-called “conflict” is based on zionist lies, which is why you can never meaningfully oppose it no matter how much you think you do.
Wait… Are you saying that Israelis became the “nomad nation” and moved from country to country just for shits and giggles? That they left Israel because they wanted to, and not because the Persians persecuted them?
Could you elaborate? Does that mean that Israelis shoot rockets at themselves?
Yes, if you read the comment you’re replying to…
Thank you for quoting the exact part that I asked you to elaborate on.
Just so I get it right: you’re of the belief that the entire “Iran gets equipment from russia, sends it to Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthi, with the money to up operations and cause chaos, and Hamas/Hezbollah use these resources to strike at random targets in Israel”, something that is confirmed by intelligence material from the entirety of NATO, Ukraine, India, Pakistan, Emirates, Saudis, Bahrain, Qatar, Jordan, Yemen, Oman, Egypt, and Sudan - ALL of that is fabricated and designed “to obscure the very clear and obvious colonial nature of ‘Israel’”?
Both-sidesing a genocide. You’re a monster
You condemn every group actually fighting to stop it
Really? Because elsewhere you’re blaming Hamas for starting it
“The Jews never fought back” is not what I said. Again, you intentionally try to misinterpret what I said. I was specifically talking about the time before the Holocaust even started, there was no reason for Germans to fear Jewish people, as they were just normal people.
Do you really not understand that Hamas did not exist before the genocide of Palestinians started? They cannot have provoked this in any way, as you repeatedly have attempted to imply with your arguments that this is different from the Holocaust.
The “Israelis” are colonizers. Not a single acre of the land they live on is rightfully theirs. It’s all stolen, except maybe a very, very small minority of Jews who lived there prior to the colonization AND consider themselves “Israelis” now AND still live on their ancestral properties, but even they still benefit from the colonialism.
I’m not misinterpreting what you said. It’s just that what you said doesn’t actually make sense the way you think it does, because you think (incorrectly) that this is a thousand year old religious conflict. That’s orientalist propaganda designed to make you support the existence of “Israel”.
In reality, where this is not a thousand year conflict but a hundred year colonization and genocide, the only way what you said makes any sense is if the Jews didn’t fight back. Because Hamas is fighting back and you are arguing it’s different from the Jewish reaction to the Holocaust. The Jews did fight back. It’s not different.
Edit: I just realized this is a 10 hour old comment I replied to in the parallel thread.
Not even trying to hide your naked bigotry against Palestinians.