- cross-posted to:
- opensource@programming.dev
- linux@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- opensource@programming.dev
- linux@lemmy.ml
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I honestly don’t get what people were so up in arms about, besides just not wanting to change what already worked for them.
It uses a completely different paradigm of process chaining and management than POSIX and the underlying Unix architecture.
That’s not to say it’s bad, just a different design. It’s actually very similar to what Apple did with OS X.
On the plus side, it’s much easier to understand from a security model perspective, but it breaks some of the underlying assumptions about how scheduling and running processes works on Linux.
So: more elegant in itself, but an ugly wart on the overall systems architecture design.
On the plus side, it’s much easier to understand from a security model perspective
Lol, no. Way more code in Systemd. Also more CVE per year than in some bad (now dead) init/svc’ lifetime.
I’m so tired of reading this stupid argument. “People only dislike systemd because they’re afraid of change.” No, there are plenty of other concerning issues about it. I could probably write about a lot of problems with systemd (like the fact that my work laptop never fucking shuts down properly), but here’s the real issue:
Do you really think it’s a good idea for Red Hat to have total control over the most important component of every mainstream distro in existence?
Let’s consider an analogy: in 2008, Chrome was the shit. Everyone loved it, thought it was great and started using it, and adoption reached ~20-30% overnight. Alternatives started falling by the wayside. Then adoption accelerated thanks to shady tactics like bundling, silently changing users’ default browser, marketing it everywhere and downranking websites that didn’t conform to its “standards” in Google search. And next, Chrome adopted all kinds of absurdly complex standards forcing all other browser engines to shut down and adopt Chrome’s engine instead because nobody could keep up with the development effort. And once they achieved world domination, then we started facing things like adblockers being banned, browser-exclusive DRM, and hardware attestation.
That’s exactly what Red Hat is trying to pull in systemd. Same adoption story - started out as a nice product, definitely better than the original default (SysVInit). Then started pushing adoption aggressively by campaigning major distros to adopt it (Debian in particular). Then started absorbing other standard utilities like logind and udev. Leveraging Gnome to push systemd as a hard dependency.
Now systemd is at the world domination stage. Nobody knew what Chrome was going to do when it was at this point a decade ago, but now that we have the benefit of hindsight, we can clearly see that monoculture was clearly not a good idea. Are people so fucking stupid that they think that systemd/Red Hat will buck that trend and be benevolent curators of the open source Linux ecosystem in perpetuity? Who knows what nefarious things they could possibly do…
But there are hints, I suppose. By the way, check out Poettering’s new startup: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46784572
Poettering’s new startup:
Amutable - verifiable system integrity
Btw, i’m stealing your summary of browser monoculture, alright?
Btw, i’m stealing your summary of browser monoculture, alright?
Of course! The EEE pattern is crystal clear at this point. The loss of the WWW to the current browser monoculture we’re experiencing is the biggest technological tragedy of our times. I would hate to see it happen with our open source revolution as well.
Red Hay has helped a lot the Linux system, I doubt desktop systems would be a good viable idea by now without their contribution. Does your analogy imply that you think Red Hat made systemd to eventually break it and thus make Linux not viable? I doubt they could do that without losing all their customers.
I mean, systemd can indeed do a lot of things but it mostly is used for startup and service management. And I prefer systems services to a cronjob.
Systemd inserted a lot of flaws, many of them highly unsecure, for basically no reason other than “easier”,
The main developer being a microslop emoyee and getting windfall from other corporate entities didn’t sync up that great for integrity or security conscious people.
I haven’t been an opponent but I must admit, when you have headless machine of different arch (so no chroot) you try to make connect to LAN and start sshd, managing those links in those directories feels more like shooting in the dark. In that case simple scripts in a dir were easier
There are now multiple alternatives that do a better job at what Systemd does.
What is it always with Systemd-is-the-only-alternative (vs. SysV scripts)? That’s 15 years out of date.
Also, you don’t need sockets.
When the drama started, the argument of my anti-systemd friend was that it goes against unix philosophy of one program do one thing only. But eventually even him turned on and become a fan.
LLM slop detected
I tried to stop worrying and love systemd, but it really is terrible to deal with sometimes.
Any recommendations for a good book or online resource to learn about systemd? Not “how to use it” or “ten tricks for systemd users”, but how it works, what makes it tick, basically a systematic overview, end then a dive into the details.
The systemd website itself seems quite information-rich: https://systemd.io/
I’m not experienced at it either and don’t know the best resources.
But what I can usually recommend in case you don’t want to see the usual “THIS-IS-A-PIECE-OF-THE-PUZZLE—COME-BACK-REGULARLY-FOR-MORE-CONENT” stuff, but more in depth stuff: Enter “filetype:pdf systemd” in your search engine. Google or DuckDuckGo will then only spit out pdf files about that topic… And the people who write PDF files are usually more experienced with the topic than those who write blog posts or “how to’s”.
Let me know if that helped in your case… :)
OK, first impression: loads of PPTs turned PDF. Not a single book far and wide…
You’ve got a point here, although this topic would do well as a wiki or similar linked documents.
Its success is mitigated by how difficult it makes networking with . All I want to do is write out the config and have it work. I don’t want networkd or resolved mucking around with stuff. You end up having problems like this guy: https://piefed.social/c/linux/p/1796382/oddness-with-systemd-resolved
The day i had to debug DNS issues was the day i ditched systemd.
deleted by creator
Yup.
can someone please tell me how to make .mount files start at boot for smb shares ffs? is the only thing systemd is failing for me.
thanks everyone.
Can you see if its trying and failing by using journalctl?
no matter what i do it only does on try.
I don’t think I could name one thing that systemd improved for me. But I can name at least one major annoyance that made things worse for me.
The real issue is the backwards incompatibility which essentially forced everyone to switch instead of being able to choose.
For that alone I will keep disliking it.
Not specifically about systemd, but some things can’t be backwards compatible because they might want to just do things different.
Nobody was forced to change, the distros saw the options and decided in favor of systemd, the same they decide a million other things.
Systemd usually can’t be in the same repo with other init systems/service managers (or with shims and hacks) *, while they themselves happily coexist. This is the Reason that there are non-systemd distros, not some unreasonable hate for new thing or anything.
* Yes, except Openrc, which was made as a drop-in for Systemd.
