Normally I always forget why I still keep thinking about switching back to Windows. Today was a great reminder. Linux can be frustrating. This post is somewhat about awareness and partly about me learning about other peoples experiences. I updated my CachyOS as usual. There were some system packages upgraded and I got the notification to reboot. Figuring I’d do it later I left after some time and the PC went to sleep. Upon returning the screen stayed black. Even upon forced reboot. Remembering I was using Limine with BTRFS snapshots I tried multiple previous snapshots but to no avail. I remember this happened before. So now I face another reinstall… This and having to dive into the deep end of terminal commands to get drivers, programs or games working can be quite frustrating. I understand why people are turned off and go back to Windows…
Onto NixOS for me. A big dive but it seems very stable which might be just what i need. I feel like the philosophy of NixOS combined with a graphical store to install programs and what not seems like a great solution.
What would your ultimate distro be like?
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This will sound like heresy to some, but get away from the bleeding edge. You probably don’t need the absolute latest version of every little thing. It can feel cool knowing you know how to fix a borked install but actually having to do so sucks. Dump the hype and get to something stable for your daily driver. If you want to experiment, do it on another drive/machine. Building a custom rocketship is cool, but you should probably build it without breaking the truck you use to go get parts.
I’m going to call this another vote for Debian
I was gonna say the same thing.
For most beginners who just want their PC to work, the obvious choice should be Mint for older hardware, and Universal Blue’s Fedora-based images (Bluefin or Aurora depending on the preferred desktop).
Of course, since OP mentioned NixOS that is an option as well. But it should be the stable version, and it is not beginner friendly like the other two.
This is a good point. Some distros are on the other end of the spectrum of being too slow (it seems) to update but you might be onto something.
Pardon me for asking so … but if you yearn for the “stability” (“simplicity”?) of Windows why not use a Linux distro with an approach more similar to that?
So something not Arch based, … and even tho NixOS almost kinda is the correct direction (for an arch-ish thing), I got the feeling you don’t really want to configure your system & potentially upkeep that config?
Also to note that the actual issue wasn’t fully diagnosed. Reinstalling the full os to fix an update is fairly extreme for your mainstream Linux these days.
But to be at least a bit on topic - bcs I need “simplicity” & “stability” at times when I can’t even (for months on end) I use Tumbleweed (rolling distro).
Fully agree!
As a Linux user for more than 10 years now, I can not really understand why so many people switch from Windows to CachyOS.
Yes, CachyOS is great. In general I see the advantage of Arch based distros, but only if one knows what they are doing. It’s great on fresh installs, but over time users need to fix issues and make decisions and this only works if they know what they are doing.
Similar wis NixOS. Great distro, but not for low maintanance and beginners. If you just want something that runs super stable and you don’t need to fix anything, go for Debian. And there are a lot of options between Debian and CachyOS.
cachy is the current ‘flavour of the day’, apparently.
+1
I run CachyOs and EndeavourOS on my main desktop, and I really don’t mind tinkering to fix things if needed.
I also share a laptop with my wife, and that’s where I want something Windows like (both in stability and familiarity). Zorin has been really good for that imo.
I definitely don’t mind the tinkering but I do mind things breaking just as I want to fire up a game with my friend. I wanna choose the moment I tinker not the other way around. It’s also about the interval in which the tinkering is needed. If I spend more time browsing arch wiki than using my PC it’s a bit skewed…
What would your ultimate distro be like?
… Debian.
You read my mind. So straightforward.
Why reinstall instead of just repairing the issue at hand?
We had to do that in Windows too.
Hard to repair with no image. And fixing it using a live USB with root is quite involving. Windows issues are almost never this serious and in such cases safe mode exists.
How long have you been using Linux, so on the one hand you still keep thinking about Windows. And on the other hand you already progressed to an Arch derivate, use BTRFS, snapshots, a non-standard bootloader and all that stuff?
I like NixOS. But it’s really for people with too much spare time to learn new programming languages, abstract concepts and weird quirks. It’s great. But sometimes you’ll also do a simple
nixos-rebuild switchand it’ll greet you with 4 pages of gibberish. Or you’ll spend 3h packaging some weird Python stuff, because you can’t just install and run it like on a regular distro 😅I’ve been on Linux for about 1-2 years now i think. Needed a reinstall a couple of times and did some distro hopping too.
NixOS seems to be a final destination for a lot of people and the premise of it seems really cool. I did try before but I was a bit put off by the programming style of installing. Like I kinda get it but having that automated by just installing from a store and having the programming stuff in the back would be so good for accessibility. How would I know how to program in a certain package or setting without internet?..
Ah great. Yeah, the entire premise of it is: you get to “program” your experience instead of clicking on some install buttons.
You can temporarily just install something in your shell:
nix-shell -p firefox-esrHow would I know how to program in a certain package or setting without internet?
I guess the easiest way, and what all people do is just use https://search.nixos.org/ In doubt, use your phone 😅
You can also install “nix-search-cli” to search for packages. or “nix-option” to get info on options. However, I’m not sure how you’d end up in a situation without internet and wanting to change the configuration. I mean the moment you want to compile and install anything, it needs access to Github or wherever the code is stored. And if you don’t compile it yourself, it will pull it from the NixOS cache, which is also on the internet. So you can’t do anything. And the times we had a DVD to install software are long gone. So it’s probably down to some rare exception when you’re on the train or airplane, want to prepare something to apply later?! I don’t think there’s a good solution except the two CLI tools and maybe a local copy of the documentation / handbook.And in my experience, the NixOS documentation isn’t great. It’s either there and straightforward. Or it’s a lot of searching stuff on the Wiki, forum… Using GitHub search with an appended: “language:nix” to see if someone already came up with a config. Or I’ll end up reading the code. That is for more advanced things, or niche stuff. It’s a bit similar to the overall experience of NixOS (in my opinion). Either things are super straightforward and mostly done for you to configure with 3 lines of code. Then there’s a fine line of stuff that’s moderately complex. And all the things not covered can get very complex and much more involved.
Yeah for some people that could be enjoyable but the philosophy is pretty cool regardless. I’m surprised no one packaged it in a “easier” way.
For sure. I mean it’s fair to assume you have internet otherwise installing will be an issue regardless. But it’s not as easy as thinking: I wanna install Firefox so I download Firefox.
You must have been of Microslop for a while if you think frustrating issues on update is a Linux thing. Just last a couple weeks ago, Microsoft released a security update that locked people out of their “C” drive. (In Windows, this is bad)
Windows sucks donkey balls for sure. Between shoving AI down your throat and indeed also messing up things or weird ass issues it’s a shit fest too. But my point is that people are more adjusted to it and there’s more resources to fix the issue. And in my experience it’s less of a OS breaking experience.
Im always surprised how different the windows expirience seems to be for many people or do they ignore all the searching for drivers, editing registry entries, running sketchy bats, trying compatibility modes until something works, random blue screens, shutdowns that are reboots.
Totally agree with Kichae. Adding to that I’d argue it’s easier for windows since more people use it so there’s more resources. Also, Windows is just a single way of doing things. There’s a difference between distros so a fix for Ubuntu might not work for Arch. Of course windows has it’s (huge) flaws and not everything works perfectly. There’s a reason I switched. But Linux in my experience breaks in a bigger way in my personal experience.
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I use fedora, debian and mint because I have several computers for different usecases. I wouldn’t recommend Fedora for this, all the others are gold in my experience, but newbies really should go through Mint first.
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I’d argue that CachyOS is more noon friendly than arch. As would EndeavourOS be. People fail to see my point that sometimes Linux breaks very easily and I’m not blaming Cachy or Arch specifically but a simple update and sleep should not result in a black screen on any OS IMO. It’s just off putting… If this would happen on windows I’d definitely complain too. And there have been plenty of instances where microslop added OS breaking things…
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I was never talking about either of them being noon friendly. Also, updating and failing to boot is kind of breaking easily I’d say. So I don’t get what point you’re even making.
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simple update and sleep should not result in a black screen on any OS IMO
That’s the thing. Different distros handle it in different ways. Some have the option to do offline updates so it will not actually install the update until after reboot so there is minimal risk of something interfering. That’s why often the recommendation is to try and find one that is more stable if that is what you value more.
I can totally get behind that. But then I’m left wondering: if that approach minimises the risk of interference, then why don’t all distros work that way?
My guess would be some value stability at all costs, others value user control, and others value uptime.
Totally agree. But if a change has no downside for any of these I’d say it would be a good idea to implement it.
Ubuntu was the first Linux distro I tried, and I’ve never tried anything else, across three laptops. I’ve never experienced problems like the ones you describe.
I see people recommending Debian but you also said you enjoy tinkering, so I’d recommend SpiralLinux. It’s basically Debian but it uses BTRFS so you can roll back to a previous snapshot if you break something. I don’t think Spiral has updated to Trixie yet so you’d need to manually upgrade but that’s not too big a hassle if you do it immediately.
Thanks for the tip. Running Bazzite now but your suggestion seems like a great recommendation too. I’ll check it out.
I’ve been loving Mint; the one thing I missed was WoW Classic but I finally found out how to get it to run under Steam and it’s been relatively great! <3
Sometimes takes a bit of fiddling but when you get it done it is bliss!
I have found bazzite to be very stable for my needs. My use case is mainly gaming with some light productivity. I have had very few problems.
I switched a couple of days ago. Seems very good so far!
Why sometimes Linux is hard to switch to
Switching is easy. Sticking to it is harder and involves relearning most of your activities in a new context.
So now I face another reinstall…
I’d honestly think that CachyOS was more ‘sturdy’. Though, I suppose it’s curious that you don’t mention anything about your troubleshooting attempts. Beyond your rollbacks in hopes of resolving the issue*. If you don’t like/want to (learn to) troubleshoot, then reconsider if CachyOS is your home.
FWIW, over (almost) 4 years of Fedora Atomic, I was only once ‘forced’ to reinstall; which happened in the first week (or so). And that was 100% a user error.
This and having to dive into the deep end of terminal commands to get drivers, programs or games working can be quite frustrating.
This isn’t recognizable to me. Would you be so kind to clarify/elaborate? Perhaps with an example even?
I understand why people are turned off and go back to Windows…
The only time I felt this, was when I just cold-turkey switched to Fedora Silverblue and bashed my head to the wall when trying to implement Madaidan’s hardening 😅. But, again, that was just very naive.
Onto NixOS for me.
NixOS is definitely based. So go for it.
What would your ultimate distro be like?
Stateless, and hardened AF. So, probably an amalgamation between your favorite security-focused Linux (be it secureblue or Qubes OS) and NixOS for its impermanence module.
Yes you’re totally right. It’s like owning a race car. You have to do a lot of maintenance to it and it will still bite you in the ass but when it works right it’s fast as hell and a lot of fun. But on the other hand: if there’s no downside to built in some failsafes then why not do it?
Thanks OP for replying! Though, I’m a little bit confused as you had already replied to this specific comment. Perhaps you meant to reply to this comment instead?
Regardless…
It’s like owning a race car. You have to do a lot of maintenance to it and it will still bite you in the ass but when it works right it’s fast as hell and a lot of fun.
If that analogy was used to describe Arch, then yeah; I can definitely see that.
But on the other hand: if there’s no downside to built in some failsafes then why not do it?
So, if you allow me, I would like to slightly rephrase the main question to the following sub-questions (and try to discuss them as we go):
- What problem are we even trying to solve? Answer: The problem of broken/borked systems due to every-day activities. Literally none of the other systems/OSes in your life do this. Your phone doesn’t. Your console doesn’t. Your non-Linux PC doesn’t. Your car doesn’t. Your TV doesn’t. Your refrigerator doesn’t. You get the drill. So how is it even conceivable that desktop Linux is the only one that hasn’t solved this yet?
- Why is this even a hard problem to solve on desktop Linux? Answer: Because it allows far more control, agency and ownership compared to all the previously mentioned systems/OSes. Heck, you can just
sudo rm -rf /your system/OS into oblivion. It is almost an oxymoron for your system to simultaneously- grant you all the freedom to do whatever you want
- and take away that very same freedom in order to preserve itself
- What fail-safes even exist? Answer: Below you may find a non-exhaustive list including a short discussion.
- Take away the freedom of the user 😅. This is literally what both Android and ChromeOS have done. And, to be absolutely fair, to great success. Your grandma wouldn’t care much for the freedom that Linux allows; she is more interested in a reliable system. This is a very effective way to make that happen. As for desktop Linux, I’m unaware of any distros that go this route. The furthest I’ve seen distros go, is that they won’t commit to support all kinds of uses. Which, to be fair, is absolutely fine in my book.
- Actual attempts to make the system less brittle. This is where it gets a bit more interesting. Desktop Linux shits itself rather easily, honestly. It should be a lot more robust. To give you an example, IIRC, I played once a little with
/etc/pam.dand my laptop didn’t boot into the OS the very next time. Like, I get it; it’s important and all, but we should be able to do better than that. While I can’t show you any examples - as I failed to find where I had seen them before - I do know that some existing systems are able to NOT piss themselves whenever an important subdirectory of/etcis absent. Arguably, NixOS provides the best example of this in practice. But I digress… - Keeping track of known good states and allowing the user a return to them. Basically, this refers to rollback functionality, but is not limited to them. Other examples include the factory resets made possible by
bootc’sinstall resetand Pop_OS’ recovery partition. A LOT can be said about this and its many variations/implementations, but this suffices for the sake of brevity.
- Are there any downsides to any of the aforementioned fail-safes? Answer:
- Taking away the user’s freedom would be like taking Linux’ soul out. This would be a categorical error. So this can’t be done UNLESS the user desires it for themselves. But, as I said earlier, I’m unaware of any distro (besides Android or ChromeOS) that has gone down this route.
- Making the system less brittle is unfortunately not that easy, it seems. Perhaps systemd can make some changes in hopes of addressing this. Otherwise, it seems that (some) atomic distros are at least pushing changes to this effect. But aside from NixOS, I’m unaware of any that have provided a mature solution. While it definitely fares better than most, it’s not as if NixOS is unbreakable either…
- Rollback functionality has slowly but surely become a common occurrence on desktop Linux. But, it isn’t sufficient by itself. OpenSUSE basically pioneered this when they launched Tumbleweed, but it became obvious that this wasn’t deemed enough by itself when MicroOS came along. Your experience also confirms this. Hence, this might give a false sense of security. Don’t get me wrong; there’s definitely something brilliant going on here. But, by itself, it has proven to be insufficient.
- So…, is the if-clause satisfied? Answer: Nope. Hence it should be easy to understand why they’re not doing it. A perfect solution with no downsides simply doesn’t exist.
- Is all hope lost? Can’t we do anything? Answer: I hope it’s more than clear by now that it’s a hard problem. But, while not perfect, there are some steps one might take for their benefit:
- Limit change. A broken/borked system/OS implies that it wasn’t before. So, something happened, i.e a change occurred, after which it shat itself. So…, the solution should be rather easy: just make no changes, right? Yeah…, that’s unfortunately not how we use our systems. But, we can limit it; which is where slow-moving distros come in. Downside: They have to move slowly…
- Compartmentalize. Why should installing a piece of software make changes to your base system? We don’t see this in NixOS. Nor do we see this on Android or ChromeOS. Downsides: Integration isn’t best yet. And, you have to trust more instances, which ain’t ideal for security/supply-chain. But, if you insist, choose your poison:
- AppImage
- Brew
- Distrobox
- Flatpak
- Nix
- Sysext
- Snap
- Toolbx
- … (Etc. You get the drill.)
- Ensure that every state is a known good state by excessive testing. This is kinda hard to do on your own. But…, what if your (base) system is literally the same as the one tested by your distro provider? And you know that they’re testing it (perhaps even excessively) in hopes that they may find a bug/breakage before it ships to you. This is not 100% fail safe, either. But it’s a lot easier to test than the (effectively infinitely) many permutations allowed otherwise. This is kinda the route some atomic distros have taken. Most notably, Fedora Atomic and its many derivatives. Downstream like uBlue (so, Bazzite etc.) fares even better at this. Downside: I don’t think you can achieve this without going atomic. Which, is absolutely fine for some of us, but -crucially- not for all of us (yet)…
- Rollbacks. We shouldn’t let perfect be the enemy of good. Combined with (some of) the previous points, this amounts to a reasonably robust system. Downside: Briefly discussed earlier. Refer to that please.
There’s perhaps more that can be written on this topic. But, I’ve already become tired and this text has already become quite lengthy. If you managed to come this far, thank you! Much appreciated!
Thank you for your in depth reply! It totally makes sense. I think some distros limit some freedom at first but still allow you to nuke your system if you’d want to although I can’t straight up mention examples.
There’s always the option to run Debian. Rock solid but as said that might come with the downside that newer hardware isn’t (properly) supported yet.
As with anything in life everything is a trade off.
Sticking to it is harder and involves relearning most of your activities in a new context.
True. That’s already a speedbump in the road. But that’s to be expected when switching to a different OS.
I suppose it’s curious that you don’t mention anything about your troubleshooting attempts. Beyond your rollbacks in hopes of resolving the issue*. If you don’t like/want to (learn to) troubleshoot, then reconsider if CachyOS is your home.
Troubleshooting is no issue. But not having a picture does not help lol. Perhaps using a live USB might fix it. But then again, that probably involves messing with kernel settings or whatever. Seems quite involved for a simple update…
This isn’t recognizable to me. Would you be so kind to clarify/elaborate? Perhaps with an example even?
Depends. I had issues with Bluetooth chips. That’s the fault of the manufacturer, not Linux but still. My Xbox controller was difficult to connect at times. I’ve had installs with audio issues or difficulties playing games because Lutris or Bottles wouldn’t work…
Thanks for the response!
But not having a picture does not help lol. Perhaps using a live USB might fix it. But then again, that probably involves messing with kernel settings or whatever. Seems quite involved for a simple update…
I 100% agree with you. But we shouldn’t ignore that CachyOS -at the end of the day- is still just Arch. And, within its excellent Wiki, we find the following “Warning” in the section concerning upgrading packages:
“Users are expected to follow the guidance in the System maintenance#Upgrading the system section to upgrade their systems regularly and not blindly run the following command.”
If we follow the link, we find within the second paragraph the following important reminder:
“Make sure to have the Arch install media or another Linux ‘live’ CD/USB available so you can easily rescue your system if there is a problem after updating.”
Kinda on the nose, don’t you think 😅? So, to be clear:
- I agree that reaching out to a live USB after a simple update is kinda bonkers.
- Yet, I acknowledge that that’s basically within expectations for Arch.
- Hence, I don’t use Arch[1]. And perhaps you shouldn’t either…
My Xbox controller was difficult to connect at times.
Thanks for clarifying! But, is this still related to issues with Bluetooth chips?
I’ve had installs with audio issues
Sorry, I simply can’t relate; simply, because I thankfully can’t recall being bothered with any such occurrence.
difficulties playing games because Lutris or Bottles wouldn’t work…
This, however, I can relate to. I’ve noticed that installing through one of the storefronts -be it GOG[2], Steam, Epic[3] (etc)- is a much better experience. And even if you don’t own it through any of the aforementioned platforms. Chances are that both the Steam client AND Heroic Games Launcher will do a splendid job at running the game. To be clear, I’ve use both Lutris and Bottles in the past; the latter quite extensively even*.
What would your ultimate distro be like?
The one that fits one’s needs the best. Given your frustration with unstable systems, I’d say the best ones would be those that take longer to make major updates, like Debian, Mint and Slackware, as then issues aren’t introduced as frequently, and older ones are better known and easier to fix or even preemptively circumvent.
Well I was mostly curious about what your ultimate distro looked like.
You might be interested in an immutable distro. Like Bazzite or other Silverblue / Ublue flavoured system. They are recent but not bleeding edge, deploy well tested images that apply as all-or-nothing. Very stable, very featurful :)
I just switch from pop os to bazzite. Bit of a changing going to fedora for the first time but overall I like it. Good for someone who wants a Windows experience, comes with steam already installed
Actually not a bad idea. Just downloaded bazzite to install to try it out. Thanks for the tip!
