This really shouldn’t be a hot take but I think the people here will disagree. “Linus unironically did nothing wrong in his linux challenge video” The linux community really shouldnt act like he was using it wrong because its a terrible look.
No reasonable person can pretend there are no issues with linux. Sure you can get good at using linux and not run into these issues but they still exist and people will still run into them and you shouldnt blame the person.
My issue is the categorization which in turn paints a picture on a lot of OSes. Call it a Pop OS challenge, or debian challenge, etc. In people’s minds there is windows, ios, and everything else is “linux”. Just leaves a bad taste. Just like in your comment you’re broadly painting “linux” issues as if windows or such doesn’t also run into problems at times (especially with windows updates lately).
In the talk show they do, he talked about how even with the issues he loves Pop OS and even mentioned that very argument–that he has problems with Windows too, and at least this way one of those problems isn’t copilot.
99% of Linux distros behave the same for the most part. There are outliers, like immutables, or NixOS, but whether you’re using Ubuntu, PopOS, Kubuntu, or Mint, your experience with the “linuxness” of your OS will be mostly identical. I’m not talking about things like “the DE looks different”, or the overall “look and feel”, I’m talking about software compatibility, driver compatibility, etc.
You could, I guess, argue if they should say “we’re testing a Debian based distro” instead of “Linux”, but that’s about it.
As already mentioned, Ubuntu/PopOS/Kubuntu/Mint are maybe the four most identical distros in the entire ecosystem. But your point really does hold true even with less-identical distros.
Currently, I have an Ubuntu Server, an Arch PC, and an old laptop “test machine” running Fedora. These are totally different limbs of the Linux family tree, but things pretty much work the same in all of them. The main difference is the package manager: Apt vs Pacman vs DNF. But like, they’re all doing basically the same thing under the hood: checking your installed software against some repository to see if anything needs an update. The actual workflow is pretty much the same with any of them.
After that it’s pretty much just a question of downloading the desktop environment and software you like. Or finding a distro that comes pre-installed with what you want. To make a gaming analogy: linux distros are like Dark Souls classes: starting stats and equipment, but the starting point doesn’t lock you into your you build in the future.
The “primary” distros would be Arch, Debian, Fedora, and NixOS.
Anything that grew out of those (with NixOS being to young for that yet, I think), is going to run basically identically, and since they all grow from the same kernel, at a fundamental level they also behave similarly.
Like, if you switch from macOS to Windows, you see fundamental differences in how things operate. If you switch from Fedora to Arch, you need to learn the new package manager syntax, but the rest is still Linux.
I’m simplifying, but I think you know what I mean.
The culture of different distros matters. Lots of people had issues with Manjaro because the devs let their certificates expire. Other distros weren’t affected by that.
On the other hand though, Linus isn’t exactly an ‘average user’, having spent most of his life working in the IT industry. I’m not sure it’s completely fair judging him as if he was a random clueless person either.
I don’t think LTT’s approach is bad exactly. I really just take issue with their argument that “there are thousands of ‘switching to Linux’ videos on YouTube, so we don’t need to cover that ground again.” It’s ignoring the fact that, for better or worse, they have the biggest audience and furthest reach in the space. There’s still room for “we’re approaching this like normies would,” but I really think they need to close it up with “if you want to do this, here’s how to do it right.”
Linus installed popOS at a friggin LAN, under pressure, and was rushing to get stuff working then got bent out of shape by comments on protondb about how to get his game to work. His colleagues sat at home, with all the time in the world to figure stuff out and were pleasantly surprised by their experience.
Linux has issues for sure, I run into them daily, but there’s a big difference in giving it a fair shot and saying “could’ve happened on Windows” and making a video as it only happens on Linux. If Linux came on hardware by default, and people had no idea it was Linux, they’d be complaining about their computer, just like people complain about Windows. Linus acts like everything is a Linux issue whenany things are just computer issues you get used to.
There is nothing wrong with installing linux at a LAN. Its quick to install and configure, its actually a layup situation for linux. If Linus had installed it at home he would have had an equally poor experience since the issues were completely out of his control. PopOS shouldnt have labeled Cosmic as production ready and shipped it. Valve should have fixed left4dead2 as its been a known issue for 5 years.
The big problem is Linus decides to pretend to be some “average user” when he isn’t one, and therefore ends up making absolutely bonkers decisions. It was super obvious in the last video because Linus was the only one participating who had major issues, and the only one participating who pretended to know nothing.
If they actually wanted to give Linux an honest shot and see if they can replace windows on one or more of their computers, the format would be entirely different. I think the format would probably start with a Q&A session with a well known Linux YouTuber like Wendel (who they still appear to have a good working relationship with) where they get the initial “here’s what you need to know and what I recommend for the best experience right now” then a check in call after 24 hours, 72 hours, 1 week and 2 weeks where they touch base, discuss pain points and how to alleviate them. Such a format would give an easy transition as well as great advise for the audience, but still present plenty of opportunity to directly see real world pain points and rough edges but instead of those rough edges being “haha Linux bad” they can instead be “here’s how to overcome them” or “this is an area that needs some developer time, anyone want to dive into improving this?” And maybe if they were really feeling crazy they could offer up some bug bounties for the pain points they find! Because that’s the power of open source is if you have the knowhow you can go in and fix it!
I honestly suspect Linus just doesn’t want to change, and that’s why he keeps failing to actually give Linux a shot. This might be an unpopular opinion here but it’s okay if he doesn’t want to change, but he should not be trying to tear down the Linux community for content in the process
I think this perspective is insane. They should absolutely not approached switching to linux by leveraging expert linux advice through their youtube contacts. Its fine for Linus to have issues switching to linux, most people do and the video wasnt just Linus having issues it was also Luke and Elijah having a good experience. When it comes to switching to linux Linus is an average user, he doesnt know about the system and is going in with little experience. LTT has gotten these pain points fixed and their video did not come off as “haha linux bad” did you watch it?
As a linux user I want linux to be an approachable thing, I would be pissed if it was presented as a thing that required expert consultation from wendel.
This really shouldn’t be a hot take but I think the people here will disagree. “Linus unironically did nothing wrong in his linux challenge video” The linux community really shouldnt act like he was using it wrong because its a terrible look.
No reasonable person can pretend there are no issues with linux. Sure you can get good at using linux and not run into these issues but they still exist and people will still run into them and you shouldnt blame the person.
My issue is the categorization which in turn paints a picture on a lot of OSes. Call it a Pop OS challenge, or debian challenge, etc. In people’s minds there is windows, ios, and everything else is “linux”. Just leaves a bad taste. Just like in your comment you’re broadly painting “linux” issues as if windows or such doesn’t also run into problems at times (especially with windows updates lately).
In the talk show they do, he talked about how even with the issues he loves Pop OS and even mentioned that very argument–that he has problems with Windows too, and at least this way one of those problems isn’t copilot.
This is an extremely bad take.
99% of Linux distros behave the same for the most part. There are outliers, like immutables, or NixOS, but whether you’re using Ubuntu, PopOS, Kubuntu, or Mint, your experience with the “linuxness” of your OS will be mostly identical. I’m not talking about things like “the DE looks different”, or the overall “look and feel”, I’m talking about software compatibility, driver compatibility, etc.
You could, I guess, argue if they should say “we’re testing a Debian based distro” instead of “Linux”, but that’s about it.
As already mentioned, Ubuntu/PopOS/Kubuntu/Mint are maybe the four most identical distros in the entire ecosystem. But your point really does hold true even with less-identical distros.
Currently, I have an Ubuntu Server, an Arch PC, and an old laptop “test machine” running Fedora. These are totally different limbs of the Linux family tree, but things pretty much work the same in all of them. The main difference is the package manager: Apt vs Pacman vs DNF. But like, they’re all doing basically the same thing under the hood: checking your installed software against some repository to see if anything needs an update. The actual workflow is pretty much the same with any of them.
After that it’s pretty much just a question of downloading the desktop environment and software you like. Or finding a distro that comes pre-installed with what you want. To make a gaming analogy: linux distros are like Dark Souls classes: starting stats and equipment, but the starting point doesn’t lock you into your you build in the future.
NixOS is a different beast for sure.
Yes, that was exactly the point I was making.
The “primary” distros would be Arch, Debian, Fedora, and NixOS.
Anything that grew out of those (with NixOS being to young for that yet, I think), is going to run basically identically, and since they all grow from the same kernel, at a fundamental level they also behave similarly.
Like, if you switch from macOS to Windows, you see fundamental differences in how things operate. If you switch from Fedora to Arch, you need to learn the new package manager syntax, but the rest is still Linux.
I’m simplifying, but I think you know what I mean.
The culture of different distros matters. Lots of people had issues with Manjaro because the devs let their certificates expire. Other distros weren’t affected by that.
It’s not a problem that’s going to pop-up during a “let’s use XYZ for ## days” challenge.
It literally did last time Linus tried due to a missing dependency for steam in the PoP!_OS repo.
On the other hand though, Linus isn’t exactly an ‘average user’, having spent most of his life working in the IT industry. I’m not sure it’s completely fair judging him as if he was a random clueless person either.
I don’t think LTT’s approach is bad exactly. I really just take issue with their argument that “there are thousands of ‘switching to Linux’ videos on YouTube, so we don’t need to cover that ground again.” It’s ignoring the fact that, for better or worse, they have the biggest audience and furthest reach in the space. There’s still room for “we’re approaching this like normies would,” but I really think they need to close it up with “if you want to do this, here’s how to do it right.”
Linus installed popOS at a friggin LAN, under pressure, and was rushing to get stuff working then got bent out of shape by comments on protondb about how to get his game to work. His colleagues sat at home, with all the time in the world to figure stuff out and were pleasantly surprised by their experience.
Linux has issues for sure, I run into them daily, but there’s a big difference in giving it a fair shot and saying “could’ve happened on Windows” and making a video as it only happens on Linux. If Linux came on hardware by default, and people had no idea it was Linux, they’d be complaining about their computer, just like people complain about Windows. Linus acts like everything is a Linux issue whenany things are just computer issues you get used to.
There is nothing wrong with installing linux at a LAN. Its quick to install and configure, its actually a layup situation for linux. If Linus had installed it at home he would have had an equally poor experience since the issues were completely out of his control. PopOS shouldnt have labeled Cosmic as production ready and shipped it. Valve should have fixed left4dead2 as its been a known issue for 5 years.
Sure there is: if you’re larping the average Joe.
The big problem is Linus decides to pretend to be some “average user” when he isn’t one, and therefore ends up making absolutely bonkers decisions. It was super obvious in the last video because Linus was the only one participating who had major issues, and the only one participating who pretended to know nothing.
If they actually wanted to give Linux an honest shot and see if they can replace windows on one or more of their computers, the format would be entirely different. I think the format would probably start with a Q&A session with a well known Linux YouTuber like Wendel (who they still appear to have a good working relationship with) where they get the initial “here’s what you need to know and what I recommend for the best experience right now” then a check in call after 24 hours, 72 hours, 1 week and 2 weeks where they touch base, discuss pain points and how to alleviate them. Such a format would give an easy transition as well as great advise for the audience, but still present plenty of opportunity to directly see real world pain points and rough edges but instead of those rough edges being “haha Linux bad” they can instead be “here’s how to overcome them” or “this is an area that needs some developer time, anyone want to dive into improving this?” And maybe if they were really feeling crazy they could offer up some bug bounties for the pain points they find! Because that’s the power of open source is if you have the knowhow you can go in and fix it!
I honestly suspect Linus just doesn’t want to change, and that’s why he keeps failing to actually give Linux a shot. This might be an unpopular opinion here but it’s okay if he doesn’t want to change, but he should not be trying to tear down the Linux community for content in the process
I think this perspective is insane. They should absolutely not approached switching to linux by leveraging expert linux advice through their youtube contacts. Its fine for Linus to have issues switching to linux, most people do and the video wasnt just Linus having issues it was also Luke and Elijah having a good experience. When it comes to switching to linux Linus is an average user, he doesnt know about the system and is going in with little experience. LTT has gotten these pain points fixed and their video did not come off as “haha linux bad” did you watch it?
As a linux user I want linux to be an approachable thing, I would be pissed if it was presented as a thing that required expert consultation from wendel.