Yup, I’m posting another this week. Sorry.
This week I’m hoping we can wrangle a solution around AI and our selfhosted community. There are plenty of strong opinions (both pro and con), but one thing is for certain - there needs to be better disclosure in promo posts. Two options (that aren’t mutually exclusive):
- Any posts of an AI focused, AI Developed, etc software gets an [AI] tag. No, a [Not-AI] tag is not needed to accomplish this, thats kind of a “non-golfer” sort of tag.
- Comment requiring an AI disclosure response to every promo post, if its not detailed in the post itself. Specifics (generating docs for commands, translation, whole-boat vibe-coded this app, etc) would be requested.
I will say that having disclosure and/or tagging would mean that comments that just say “slop” or “fuck ai” or whatever would be off topic at that point, that information is already provided, so its just noise (and sometimes pretty uncivil - I’ve been light on that for now due to the need for a rule on this).
The tag [AI] would make it easy to filter out (or search for, if that’s your thing), but there is a wildly different degree of AI use out there, and from the posts with a positive score, its usually due to responsible AI use (translations, a snippet they had to do something obscure with, available to use with AI but doesn’t require it, whatever), which is why I think the disclosure has a place as a benefit to everyone.
Please provide any input or alternative options on this, and I can then put it to a vote like the last one. Comments seem to be the best approach without involving something off-site, but if you have a better idea/option, please share.
I don’t have a problem with AI. I have a problem with vibe-coded apps released as a one-shot and then never maintained or supported. That’s slop.
I also have a problem with the trace apps (lifttrace, nutritrace, etc.) because while they’re entirely vibe-coded, they are actively developed, but they’re posted here by a brand promotion account that doesn’t otherwise contribute to the community. If there’s any “x% self-ptomotion” threshold, they fail it, because it’s 100% self-promotion.
I know I also reported another post as slop recently but I don’t remember what it was.
Yeah. Abandonware isn’t cool generally
Honest question intended to spark discussion.
Does this mean that all “single developer” projects can be considered abandonware (that aren’t open source/forkable)?
Or really “all” non open source software really. Companies “can” die.
IMO, abandonware means software that is a dead-end upon its very release, with no hopes or plans for anyone to every build upon it. Abandonware is generally not extensible, follows no good design philosophy that would let someone else build it up, and embodies essentially nothing.
Even a 100-line throwaway Python script has more utility to someone when it is published on PasteBin or whatever. But something like a binary executable released with no source code, with no support, and with no intent by the developer to ever make anything more of it, that’s abandonware.
Thanks for the definition!
I’m tracking what you’re saying.
If there’s any “x% self-ptomotion” threshold, they fail it, because it’s 100% self-promotion.
Not with f/loss, just account age and they are above the threshold there.
I want a community where people can use AI to help build a tool and be able to post about it here. But unfortunately, I’m just not seeing that. The AI-generated apps seem to be coupled to a drive-by, AI generated post (and comment replies) all full of em dashes and the standard Claude slop language.
So, yes, mandate an AI tag. Hold posters to it and remove violators, because it seems to always be the same class of “contributors” that are cosplaying as software developers.
Not sure if your rule changes are touching this, but the worst offenders I don’t want to see here are:
- posting and commenting text written entirely by AI
- not open sourcing or giving any visibility into their code
- adopting a paid model
The people doing that remind me of the people who would approach me 20 years ago saying “hey I have an idea for an app I want you to build and I’ll give you 5% of my company. It’s like Facebook for dogs, but I need you to sign an NDA before I say any more”.
i agree with you. i have been working orofessionally as a software developer for over 27 years. i’ll use ai to help research something but i cant atand low effort full ai projects being posted.
i always saw non devs using ai to fully generate something for them personally to fix a very custom need but why do these people post projects thry honestly had no hand in.
Man it is great for creating custom apps to scratch your need. I have custom programs to filter out blocklists for one country and dynamically update firewall rules on unified gateways. Stuff that well never be put in as it would hurt their paid subscription.
The first bullet is, the other two are covered in the current rule 7 that just went live this week.
While part of promo, this is just about its own item here. In part because it could be something like “I wrote some of this script, got some ai help to talk to this closed device, here’s what I’m using” which doesn’t really fit promo, but still garners a lot of negative attention and comments.
I’m a bit hopeful this one would be of slightly broader benefit than just the straight up promo posts (which has a good amount of requirements now to filter out the garbage, though it does put some delays on f/loss projects that are well intentioned).
Not a fan of a tag, since it’s not transparent enough. Sounds like every minor use of AI would warrant a tag, which seems past the point.
The disclosure comment I feel works well. People that care about if/how AI was used can check it to get a proper impression of the scale of and workflow for AI usage, and those who don’t care can ignore it.
I really like having the disclosure comment pinned for a more nuanced explanation of what, if any, AI went into a project or post. I think just a tag can’t capture the levels of AI use.
I’m personally a never-genAI, but, unless we go No AI as a community, I don’t think it makes sense to group all projects that touch AI for documentation with all that use it for testing with all that completely let the AI generate all their code, etc. And I don’t think setting a threshold for which get tagged makes sense either. Basically, a tag is misleading no matter how it’s implemented.
I like the AI tag idea. I’m someone who has what I’d call a noderate approach to AI, not an AI bro but any means but I’m also okay with some things built with AI if they’re done with care. If others don’t want to see it, fine, then that’s what a tag could be useful with. However the fuck AI/slop comments on something that admits to being AI is annoying to me. (We know it’s AI, they literally said it is).
If it becomes too much content, then yes would be okay with bi-forcating the community, buy only after it becomes a problem.
I think tags are a good idea. I would change the tag to [AI / LLM], and maybe some subtags like [chatbot], [image processing], etc. AI is here to stay, or a least until the US realize the hole under their entire economy (Or both in worst case scenerio) , so regulation is a good solution to this. (In my humble opinion)
You know, after last week, I’ve landed on the position that this is an intractable debate. Both sides have valid points and neither side is willing to concede or meet in the middle. That’s just people.
Ironically, I think both sides want he same thing - no bots, no slop.
To that end, for the proper functioning of this group, I think that the wisdom of having an AI tag (even though I personally think it’s a blunt tool) is probably the only productive way forward. The pro and anti sides will not see eye to eye…but at least with [AI] tag, maybe the worst excesses of both may be mitigated.
Cynically, if we look at Reddit as a “what not to do” example…the only thing that stops Lemmy from becoming Reddit 2.0 is friction. The tag provides friction.
Anything that stops the real slop invasion (ala r/localllm et al) is a big plus. I’d like to think that almost all of the users here are savvy enough to tell slop from real, but at the end of the day, if every other post becomes slop, it gets exhausting to deal with.
Bot posts on Lemmy have been on the rise, as (presumably) people migrate from Reddit and bots follow.
If the new community rules + AI tags can mitigate both slop and the FuckAI crowd, I’m for trying it.
EDIT: I think the [AIT] proposed else where is better than straight [AI] tag.
Alternative: make a separate “selfhosted-ai” community for the sloperators.
Just to point out a few projects that allow AI contributions:
- Firefox
- NodeJS
- Chromium
- curl
- Go
- InfluxDB
- MariaDB
- Prometheus
- Linux
- openSSL
- Blender
- Mattermost
- Caddy
If you want all projects related to AI in a different community, it may be easier for you to start “selfhosted_without_ai” or something.
Indeed, AI is a tool, and the human should be an expert who verify its work. What I don’t like are posts about apps that are completely vibe-coded without any thought put into them, which pose dangerous security risks.
Thats the reasoning behind the disclosure bit, I agree its a tool, and great when used correctly.
But if you try and use a hammer like a drill, you’re gonna have a bad time.
It is not ‘just a tool.’ It is not “great.” Too many people focus on how it is used and not how it is created, how it affects us, and how it affects the world.
I’m just going to shortcut this and say two things:
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I can guarantee the overwhelming majority (if not all) of your issues have nothing to actually do with LLMs and everything to do with corporations. Power use, data center buildouts, market impact, whatever - none it is an an llm problem. LLMs are just another piece of software, thats all.
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Your personal opinion on this, as well as mine, does not change the overall conversation here. So how about we just stick to the topic at hand?
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There is absolutely zero “AI” involved in the development of any of these. They just use computer programs. No actual intelligence apart from humans.
I think you may be misunderstanding the terminology here.
AI is a general term. LLMs are a subset, as are ML, DL, ANNs, NLP, CV, Expert models, etc.
Today you would define what we have as ANI, where the “N” stands for “Narrow”. This is also known as “weak” AI.
What you’re referring to would be called AGI, where the “G” stands for “General”, where an AI would have a human degree of intelligence. This is pure concept today, and does not exist.
Also on the list would be ASI, where the “S” is for “Super”, where the AI in question has more collective intelligence than humanity across all domains. This is purely hypothetical.
But AI has existed for decades. The first application I know of is Dendral, which was created in the 1950s to analyze mass spectrometry data to identify organic molecules. This was what’s called an Expert model - basically a lot of if-then statements, and led to things like MYCIN.
We don’t need to redefine words here.
For the grifters who promote the myth of “AI”. Let them have their own delusional echo chamber.
Sounds like a good solution for me. I think most users dislike completely vibe coded apps, not ai supported apps. So maybe we should be more specific here.
For example: [Vibe-Coded]
This would also support new users finding the right tag.
I think this should be a thing. At the same time, I would also want something similar for funding or platforming fascists, but that is unlikely to end up being done. I think a simple tag, the [AI] one would work, is the best current solution. I think extra detail in the post is a good thing to do, for example AI assisted documentation, AI assisted bug finding, AI assisted vibe coding. They are all different and have different effects on the product and community. If someone uses AI to find bugs in their own code I am all for it, that is a great use if it. If they use AI to write their login system I am not keen at all given the likelihood of intense security issues and the low likelihood that they will ever fix it.
I would also want something similar for funding or platforming fascists
Ooh that would be good
I wonder if there is a database somewhere…
Promoting the imaginary grift of “AI” is almost the same thing as promoting the fascists who are profiting.
Thanks for grappling with this @curbstickle@anarchist.nexus
I will say that having disclosure and/or tagging would mean that comments that just say “slop” or “fuck ai” or whatever would be off topic at that point, that information is already provided, so its just noise (and sometimes pretty uncivil - I’ve been light on that for now due to the need for a rule on this).
The drive by down voting doesn’t bother me at all. I sense that it does intimidate quite a few here. To me it’s pretty darn silly because it’s no longer a filtration mechanism as it was once intended, and now has become a way to vent displeasure, angst, and inner turmoil. However, it is what it is. I can deal with that with ease.
The curb stomping is really the issue to me. I realize there are 8.4 billion other people on this planet and few will align with all of my core beliefs and convictions, which I see as a positive; yaaay diversity! I’m willing to give the space to agree-to-disagree and still be cordial and supportive where it’s needed. (eg: the *arr stack) All I want to do is hang out with selfhosters, learn from them, and share with others what little knowledge I’ve gained along the way. I have no other agenda.
I agree with the [AI] tag. I’m not really sure why that would trigger someone more than [SOLVED], and I agree with the 30 days in the hole. Two weeks would have sufficed imho, but 30 is fine.
Thanks @curbstickle@anarchist.nexus
If you don’t delineate, it will simply be easier to tag everything ai as there was ai involved somewhere and you’re less likely to need to defend yourself.
Actually might be easier to do [AIless]
I agree, there’s valid points on both sides, let’s be civil and request posts are tagged accordingly so that they can be filtered.
Respectful coexistance, is the path forward.
I don’t have a problem with people talking about different open source technologies.
But I do have a problem with this comm promoting the grift that “AI” exists.
What exactly is this post about? Chat bots? Image/video processing? Content generation?
None of this stuff is “AI”. Please don’t label it as such. It’s grifter nonsense.
