Okay, I’ve read over the article and a few links to help my understanding.
I think in the yogacara/eight consciousness model, we’d say store consciousness is the t4 evolving consciousness that stores the collective and individual seeds. T3 would be discriminative awareness or volitional awareness, i.e. what I want (manas or the wisdom of equality in its enlightened state). T2 would be mind consciousness, which through skillful application we can find that well lubed machine you mentioned (aligning itself and manas with store consciousness through practice and deep looking, which resolves fear of death as we’re able to look beyond our individual lives). And T1 the sense gates with only reflexive awareness.
I appreciate this conversation btw and hear what you’re saying about the maps only being maps and how they miss some things like sense of balance.
So yeah, I don’t think machines are T3 systems. No sense of agency. A working space for learning (like mind consciousness) but not ‘self aware’.
In principle subsystems that aren’t awareness can also be T3 systems, I suspect that at least from the motor cortex, mine does seem to have gotten more effective at learning from moment to moment, meaning it learned how to learn better and that’s T3. At least I think it’s not just me learning to not micro-manage it as much, it’s very hard to be sure about any of this, too many intersecting possibilities.
From the cybernetic/information theory side we don’t really know how these kinds of systems work in the first place, we’re barely getting started understanding T2 systems. All the AI tech we have is basically ways to breed fruit flies to fly left or right when seeing certain patterns, with enough computing power thrown at it to look impressive. We already had that kind of tech in the 50s (first implementations 54 for genetic algorithms, 57 for the perceptron), of course less impressive.
Learning to not micromanage it as much was advice I first came across in a Shambala book and took years to put into practice. (Still takes practice tbh).
That said I think there’s also learning involved. As I mentioned earlier I do physical flow practices and muscle memory is some kind of learning. I don’t know how this learning takes place though as muscle biology isn’t much of an area of interest for me.
I was thinking about our conversation more last night after I went to bed. Are you aware of the moon in the dew drop metaphor? I think I’ve been looking for hierarchies when it’s all cybernetic feedbacks up and down multiple layers. Like the T4 layer, we could call the root, but we’re a reflection of it and it is a reflection of us.
Really hard to not think in terms of hierarchy though.
I’m trying to think of a good way to draw it with language. (1-5)-6-7-8. Sense impressions from the five sense gates (I know there’s more) comes in reflexively from the 8th consciousness (the evolving environment). Mind consciousness (reflective) sits between the sense consciousnesses and volitional consciousness (what do I like/dislike/want/need, i.e discriminatory) forming a map (data set) out of sense experience and a direction out of volitional formations. Enlightenment is turning mind consciousness around and seeing that volitional awareness itself is evolving along/with the eighth or T4 because we’re in a feedback loop. But it’s always multiple loops even if the T4 system seems to be separate from our little 60-80 year lives, it’s not. Our brief period evolved from it and evolves it. No birth and no death.
Sorry that’s more Buddhism than AI or cybernetics. Trying to communicate my understanding (map which is not the territory) to the best of my ability. And this conversation has deepened my own understanding, learning the T4 systems model was a helpful way to look at things and something I’ll keep studying as time goes on :)
Okay, I’ve read over the article and a few links to help my understanding.
I think in the yogacara/eight consciousness model, we’d say store consciousness is the t4 evolving consciousness that stores the collective and individual seeds. T3 would be discriminative awareness or volitional awareness, i.e. what I want (manas or the wisdom of equality in its enlightened state). T2 would be mind consciousness, which through skillful application we can find that well lubed machine you mentioned (aligning itself and manas with store consciousness through practice and deep looking, which resolves fear of death as we’re able to look beyond our individual lives). And T1 the sense gates with only reflexive awareness.
I appreciate this conversation btw and hear what you’re saying about the maps only being maps and how they miss some things like sense of balance.
So yeah, I don’t think machines are T3 systems. No sense of agency. A working space for learning (like mind consciousness) but not ‘self aware’.
In principle subsystems that aren’t awareness can also be T3 systems, I suspect that at least from the motor cortex, mine does seem to have gotten more effective at learning from moment to moment, meaning it learned how to learn better and that’s T3. At least I think it’s not just me learning to not micro-manage it as much, it’s very hard to be sure about any of this, too many intersecting possibilities.
From the cybernetic/information theory side we don’t really know how these kinds of systems work in the first place, we’re barely getting started understanding T2 systems. All the AI tech we have is basically ways to breed fruit flies to fly left or right when seeing certain patterns, with enough computing power thrown at it to look impressive. We already had that kind of tech in the 50s (first implementations 54 for genetic algorithms, 57 for the perceptron), of course less impressive.
Learning to not micromanage it as much was advice I first came across in a Shambala book and took years to put into practice. (Still takes practice tbh).
That said I think there’s also learning involved. As I mentioned earlier I do physical flow practices and muscle memory is some kind of learning. I don’t know how this learning takes place though as muscle biology isn’t much of an area of interest for me.
I was thinking about our conversation more last night after I went to bed. Are you aware of the moon in the dew drop metaphor? I think I’ve been looking for hierarchies when it’s all cybernetic feedbacks up and down multiple layers. Like the T4 layer, we could call the root, but we’re a reflection of it and it is a reflection of us.
Really hard to not think in terms of hierarchy though.
I’m trying to think of a good way to draw it with language. (1-5)-6-7-8. Sense impressions from the five sense gates (I know there’s more) comes in reflexively from the 8th consciousness (the evolving environment). Mind consciousness (reflective) sits between the sense consciousnesses and volitional consciousness (what do I like/dislike/want/need, i.e discriminatory) forming a map (data set) out of sense experience and a direction out of volitional formations. Enlightenment is turning mind consciousness around and seeing that volitional awareness itself is evolving along/with the eighth or T4 because we’re in a feedback loop. But it’s always multiple loops even if the T4 system seems to be separate from our little 60-80 year lives, it’s not. Our brief period evolved from it and evolves it. No birth and no death.
Sorry that’s more Buddhism than AI or cybernetics. Trying to communicate my understanding (map which is not the territory) to the best of my ability. And this conversation has deepened my own understanding, learning the T4 systems model was a helpful way to look at things and something I’ll keep studying as time goes on :)