BEVs are over 100 years old. In fact, they’re older than ICE cars. No one seems to notice that this is the longest development process of any technology in the industry.
Meanwhile, fuel cells are just coming into their own. Most of your arguments are just totally outdated and stuck in the past. You seem oblivious to the fact that FCEVs already exist and are being sold to the public right now. They’re already a developed technology, just one that hasn’t become popular yet. It is likely dismissing solar and wind energy just as they were taking off. It is just being closed-minded and short-sighted to say these things.
Meanwhile, fuel cells are just coming into their own.
Fuel cells were invented in 1839. What are you talking about? Fuel cells are also widely used in backup generation, and on-site power generation for large consumers of electricity. I’ve even visited an EV charging station powered by natural gas fuel cells.
The first real device we’d call a battery was from 1800. So a 38 year head start. The technology of fuel cells isn’t the issue with them, it’s the fuel part. Well, that and the catalyst plates. But that’s not exactly rocket science to rebuild a fuel cell when the catalysts need refurbishment.
Part of the advancement in fuel cell is our ability to produce hydrogen at a low cost.
That’s the only part, in fact, that needs advancement. And it’s in no way mirroring PV cells development path or cost decreases. Our most efficient, lowest cost form of abundant hydrogen is cracking it out of methane / natural gas. And that method will always be more expensive than just generating electricity from the methane because you need to generate high temperature steam as part of the process by burning some of the methane. The only other source of less expensive but not abundant enough hydrogen is as an industrial process byproduct. And that’s not even close to producing enough to meet current demands if we could magically capture it and had no refining costs to scrub out other wastes.
Then you are painfully stuck in the past. Your rhetoric is not just a repeat of anti-wind and anti-solar, it is purely climate doomerism. The same argument climate change deniers have continuously made. It’s entirely based on the idea that nothing can replace fossil fuels. In reality, this is an infinite resource for all practical purposes. It’s long-term cost will be approximately zero, not whatever number you wish it to be.
I guess I’ll just say that if you think we’re stopping climate change at this point, you live in a fantasy. It’s happening, we’ve already done irreversible damage, and the conversation we’re having now is how do we stop making it worse than the catastrophe it’s already guaranteed to be. We aren’t preventing head deaths or massive climate migrations, that shit’s happening no matter what we do.
As for me, I absolutely do not believe fossil fuels are our only way forward. I simply don’t believe in magic. The energy required to produce H2 gas isn’t free, the energy to compress and chill it isn’t free, the energy to truck it around or build and operate pipelines isn’t free. What I do believe is that renewable energy will continue to displace existing fossil fuels at an increasing pace. Their LCOE is exceptionally hard to beat with any system that destroys its energy source as part of its reaction. Nuclear is likely off the table due to cost and regulatory issues, but it’s perhaps our best bet for base loads.
You are misdirecting. You are effective saying that green hydrogen can never be as cheap as fossil-fuel based hydrogen, which is an absurd argument and is basically climate doomerism.
What you are fundamentally missing is the fact that this does not require limited resources. It’s all made from stuff that is available everywhere. It is literally just combining wind, sunlight and water together to create a fuel that can nearly directly replace natural gas. These are basically infinite resources with basically infinite supply. The cost floor is zero because of that. It is exactly the same argument as wind or solar.
In fact, you are repeating the exact same anti-PV argument that fossil fuel people made: That the EROI of solar panels is permanently poor, or that efficiency is simply too low. Which in their minds meant it will never be cost effective. But they never noticed the fact that sunlight is an effectively infinite resource with a cost floor of zero. As a result it simply didn’t matter what advantages fossil fuels had. A solar panel can just churn out energy at nearly zero cost, and ultimate that is what happened. Same thing with wind too. And anything that is just an extension of that idea will also have a cost floor of zero. As a result, it is merely a matter of when green hydrogen drops to nearly zero cost. Alternatives will not be able to beat that and therefore they will be displaced by it.
BEVs are over 100 years old. In fact, they’re older than ICE cars. No one seems to notice that this is the longest development process of any technology in the industry.
Meanwhile, fuel cells are just coming into their own. Most of your arguments are just totally outdated and stuck in the past. You seem oblivious to the fact that FCEVs already exist and are being sold to the public right now. They’re already a developed technology, just one that hasn’t become popular yet. It is likely dismissing solar and wind energy just as they were taking off. It is just being closed-minded and short-sighted to say these things.
Fuel cells were invented in 1839. What are you talking about? Fuel cells are also widely used in backup generation, and on-site power generation for large consumers of electricity. I’ve even visited an EV charging station powered by natural gas fuel cells.
Batteries are an even older idea. As a technology that can power vehicles, fuel cells are coming in their own now.
The first real device we’d call a battery was from 1800. So a 38 year head start. The technology of fuel cells isn’t the issue with them, it’s the fuel part. Well, that and the catalyst plates. But that’s not exactly rocket science to rebuild a fuel cell when the catalysts need refurbishment.
The first time we had a fuel cell powered car of any kind was in the 1960s. It is a much more recent technology.
Part of the advancement in fuel cell is our ability to produce hydrogen at a low cost. It is mirroring the progress that photovoltaics went through.
That’s the only part, in fact, that needs advancement. And it’s in no way mirroring PV cells development path or cost decreases. Our most efficient, lowest cost form of abundant hydrogen is cracking it out of methane / natural gas. And that method will always be more expensive than just generating electricity from the methane because you need to generate high temperature steam as part of the process by burning some of the methane. The only other source of less expensive but not abundant enough hydrogen is as an industrial process byproduct. And that’s not even close to producing enough to meet current demands if we could magically capture it and had no refining costs to scrub out other wastes.
Then you are painfully stuck in the past. Your rhetoric is not just a repeat of anti-wind and anti-solar, it is purely climate doomerism. The same argument climate change deniers have continuously made. It’s entirely based on the idea that nothing can replace fossil fuels. In reality, this is an infinite resource for all practical purposes. It’s long-term cost will be approximately zero, not whatever number you wish it to be.
I guess I’ll just say that if you think we’re stopping climate change at this point, you live in a fantasy. It’s happening, we’ve already done irreversible damage, and the conversation we’re having now is how do we stop making it worse than the catastrophe it’s already guaranteed to be. We aren’t preventing head deaths or massive climate migrations, that shit’s happening no matter what we do.
As for me, I absolutely do not believe fossil fuels are our only way forward. I simply don’t believe in magic. The energy required to produce H2 gas isn’t free, the energy to compress and chill it isn’t free, the energy to truck it around or build and operate pipelines isn’t free. What I do believe is that renewable energy will continue to displace existing fossil fuels at an increasing pace. Their LCOE is exceptionally hard to beat with any system that destroys its energy source as part of its reaction. Nuclear is likely off the table due to cost and regulatory issues, but it’s perhaps our best bet for base loads.
You are misdirecting. You are effective saying that green hydrogen can never be as cheap as fossil-fuel based hydrogen, which is an absurd argument and is basically climate doomerism.
What you are fundamentally missing is the fact that this does not require limited resources. It’s all made from stuff that is available everywhere. It is literally just combining wind, sunlight and water together to create a fuel that can nearly directly replace natural gas. These are basically infinite resources with basically infinite supply. The cost floor is zero because of that. It is exactly the same argument as wind or solar.
In fact, you are repeating the exact same anti-PV argument that fossil fuel people made: That the EROI of solar panels is permanently poor, or that efficiency is simply too low. Which in their minds meant it will never be cost effective. But they never noticed the fact that sunlight is an effectively infinite resource with a cost floor of zero. As a result it simply didn’t matter what advantages fossil fuels had. A solar panel can just churn out energy at nearly zero cost, and ultimate that is what happened. Same thing with wind too. And anything that is just an extension of that idea will also have a cost floor of zero. As a result, it is merely a matter of when green hydrogen drops to nearly zero cost. Alternatives will not be able to beat that and therefore they will be displaced by it.