Image description:
Shopping for a laptop as a Linux user:
Screenshot from the Simpsons where Otto is talking to Marge and Homer standing next to a window in their house with a caption “Oh wow, windows!.. I don’t think I can afford this place.”
I hate that nowadays everything comes with pre-installed spyware and that they charge you for it makes it even worse…
- Want a TV? Suck on our Android TV with Google spyware embedded
- Want a phone? Get our Android with Google spyware, or go for an Apple with Apple spyware
- Want a computer? We’ll shove Windows spyware down your throat
Ffs I just want devices that I own to not spy on me, and I can’t even buy them anymore…
Each of them require flashing a custom privacy respecting OS onto it,
and that’s a real problem…Nice list, I would add routers (not everywhere). But for example here in Germany you get a device from your ISP for free but don’t try to change the DNS settings because your ISP wants to know what you are doing online.
Only alternative is a fritzbox which is highly overpriced for a simple router+modem. >200€ for a cablerouter.
I had to buy a used fritzbox, need to nearly hacked them for activating the deactivated bridge-mode and put a cheap Asus router on it with flashed openwrt.
I needed 6 months for the whole setup.
Unless you are using DoH or DoT it does not matter which DNS server you have configured on the modem/router, DNS requests are sent as plain text so your ISP can still see them and will know which sites you are seeing.
OpenWRT with DoH or DoT bypasses that problem, alternatively a VPN with custom DNS. Also a Pihole or Adguard instance never hurt. But at the end of the day someome owns those DNS servers and will likely log your use.
I build computers and sell them, and will put whatever OS you want on them, except Windows. If you want windows, I take $150 off the price of the tower.
I’m a developer, modder and privacy advocate, I know how to put a custom OS on my hardware, but I’m a minority.
However the average joe does not,
and they, the majority,
are forced into using spyware.Often without them even knowing so,
which is a true issue
Unfortunately it’s concept which were in the past.Nowdays u are not owning ur device,you are actually just renting it. Unless new laws are passed that will prohibit such a business model.
I do own my devices.
Companies want you to not own the devices, and rent them through a subscription model,
however I refuse to do that.If you do that / fall for that,
then you’re part of the problem making such a future a reality…
The tv thing is the most insane. Like I grew up used to knowing phones are all tapped and computers too. But I pay to not have ads on tv but my tv itself has ads. And I can run a Linux computer and we’re getting somewhere with spyware and ad free phones even if it’s not yet where I need to switch, but tv, fucking hell
It’s not even the spyware or ads that piss me off the most about “smart” TVs, it’s how they always seem to lag to fucking shit. I’ve mostly used lower end ones, but even a few mid range ones I’ve used are still laggy pieces of shit that obviously have the cheapest components imaginable. Which for a normal tv is fine, expected even! But on a “smart” tv where to do anything at all you have to dig through their shitty, counter intuitive “smart” menu, it just sucks.
And then you want to watch some normal tv after a long day and the fuckin thing won’t let you because it demands it installs an update, which thanks to those cheap components, takes far longer than it should
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Apple spyware? Cute that you make shit up to justify your victimhood. The vendors that install actual spyware appreciate your ignorance.
Right, Apple is a champion of open source and transparency.
That wasn’t the accusation.
There are many who use Apple laptops as Linux laptops.
I don’t understand your initial point. He’s talking about what you get when you buy a new PC. If you buy an Apple PC, you’ll get Apple spyware. It doesn’t imply anything about some Apple buyers putting Linux on their PCs
Apple spyware means exactly what to you? You can’t just make shit up because you hate Apple. Then on top of that expect someone who is more knowledgeable to accept your ignorance.
When people ask for advice and reject the most common paths that professional take because they cannot get over their own ignorance, they aren’t actually asking for advice. They are playing victim and looking for their fellow ignorants to ditto them.
I 100% guarantee you that any Apple product is collecting your data and squeezing as much profit as possible out of it. Why? well, Why not!
Source: trust me bro
Same with Windows computers. You make no sense
There are a lot of smart people making sure Apple hardware supports Linux. There is a limited number of variations, the hardware itself has high built quality and Apple pushes support into the Linux community so the hardware can more easily run Linux.
The same cannot be said about any random windows laptop.
As others have noted, if you want a Linux first laptop, there are options.
However this idea that Apple spies on its users has no merit. It’s a claim I have only witnessed being made by the witless.
I’ve been in the internet long enough to know not to expect fools to accept they are fools.
Unlike the morons of the internet, I am always ready to be proven wrong. However, it doesn’t look like that’s about to happen here.
According to the current class action lawsuit, the privacy settings for the app store do nothing. So consent doesn’t matter. Building a digital fingerprint after explicitly saying they don’t might be called spying.
https://9to5mac.com/2023/01/09/apple-privacy-tracking-lawsuit/
Have you considered that your approach may contribute to your difficulties dealing with such people? The tone of your messages is extremely aggressive.
Educate yourself fruity,
Apple does spy on youYou made the accusation, you back it up. I’m not doing the leg work for you.
Apple’s entire schtick is the walled off garden where they can control what you’re allowed to do and yes they spy on it
You keep making that claim about spying without attempting to back it up.
You’re confusing me with others, just the once, but hey, you’re free to lick apple’s boots. Fairly common knowledge that just about everything corporation that can include spyware does. You think Apple doesn’t track every purchase you make on their platform and utilize that data in reference to your name, phone number, email, geo-location, bundle it altogether and sell to advertisers?
Yes. Free to think it because it’s true. Apple doesn’t sell their users out, they get their money up front on the hardware…the thing people like you call the Apple Tax.
Here are a few examples, but if you do some research like I told you to, you’ll stumble upon many more:
- Apple ignored/ignores disabling of “Share iPhone Analytics”:
https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-privacy-dsid-analytics-personal-data-test-1849807619 - Apple started scanning your local files even if you do not use iCloud / Apple services:
https://sneak.berlin/20230115/macos-scans-your-local-files-now/ - Apple (allegedly) left in a backdoor to iPhones (likely on purpose and in cooperation with government officials):
https://www.kaspersky.com/about/press-releases/2023_kaspersky-discloses-iphone-hardware-feature-vital-in-operation-triangulation-case
Click bait
Click bait
Hardware flaw
None of this is spyware. Not a single piece.
If I cared I could have guessed these were some of the examples you added to your “Apple is bad head cannon” but these still aren’t what is being alleged by the original poster, spyware.
At best you can claim Apple is using terms and conditions to add wiggle room but again, not spyware.
I asked if you know what spyware is but I get that it doesn’t matter. Your head cannon is unbeatable and it’s easier to dismiss me as a no nothing asshole. The crowd has spoke, this technology forum is more interested in groupthink than technology.
What are your sources for debunking mine?
Besides you just not liking to face the truth?Blanket surveillance is not clickbait,
it’s spyware, and a problem.But sure continue to stick your head in the sand,
that will surely help humanity beat this problem.
- Apple ignored/ignores disabling of “Share iPhone Analytics”:
Buy a Framework, System76 or something else with first class Linux support.
Love their concept but I just can’t afford it. My problem isn’t finding a machine that works well with Linux. It’s finding a machine that I can afford. And the stupid windows fee for something I will immediately uninstall is a big deal to me.
I think most Lenovo and dell computers provide you with the option to go without an OS or something like Ubuntu.
Only select top-end models in my country unfortunately.
Ubuntu is basically the only Linux distro I’ve seen offered on most computers from most if the big manufacturers.
Want something else? Install it yourself, or get a Slimbook or something similar to that.
Framework has their 11th gen Intel laptops right now as a barebones for $499 USD from B-stock, new components, if that interests you.
Otherwise, Chromebooks that you can flash replacement coreboot are another good option.
Unfortunately Framework doesn’t retail in my country and that’s the requirement. But that does sound very enticing, I’ll keep an eye on their B-stock. Thanks!
As for the flashed chromebooks that sounds like a pretty cool weekend project but I need something with a little more power.
Important to remember that not all Chromebooks are created equal. There are some that have i5/i7s or Ryzen CPUs in them that will rival most laptops. I see $200-500 USD Chromebooks all the time with decent specs refurbed or clearance.
Is the 500usd for the full computer? I got confused before that some of the cheapest configurations didn’t have everything needed to make the computer, like RAM and storage.
It includes everything except RAM, Storage, and the USB C modular ports. With all of that you’re probably looking more like $575-600. They do, however, have 8GB of RAM for $15, cheap storage options, etc, so it’s a pretty good deal overall for such a repairable and upgradable laptop.
No it is not
Have you considered second hand? I’m not talking second hand specifically for framework or other mentioned brands, but just in general.
I feel it is not yet normalized to consider second hand for electronics, yet you can find quite some good deals. Not everything needs to be bought new, especially if you are price sensitive. One generation or 2 older hardware bought second hand can be better and cheaper than new.
Yes, I’m a huge fan of second hand as well, but this has to be a brand new laptop for external reasons.
I’m in fact writing this from a 12 year old Thinkpad that I restored.
What are your actual requirements? Are you looking for something specific?
Thanks for trying to help me out but in this situation the laptop must be new, sold through a retailer in my country that is on a specific list. I don’t think you can help me out with this one, there just aren’t any options that meet this demand that have no system or linux. They always come with windows preinstalled.
yooo old thinkpad <3
which model? xx20?
T420s.
I love it but it is pretty slow (i5 model)
There are newer Thinkpads that can also be found second-hand. With NVME storage and newer CPUs. The Linux support for them has actually gotten better. Lenovo is still the best hardware for Linux out of all the old manufacturing brands.
I watched a YouTube video where this guy buys thinkpads that are “broken” and often they just need ram installed or something simple, and for a minor risk of buying a dud, he gets laptops for super cheap.
It’s what I used to do myself. I have had multiple thinkpads that I bought BIOS-locked and fixed that problem using a screwdriver and some good timing :D Amazing machines.
But I am looking for something brand new, because of requirements that were not set by me.
Oems like dell pay almost nothing for their windows license. Compared to the cost of the laptop it’s negligible.
Buy used
I would not buy a laptop used
Why? There are plenty of cheap well built laptops that will easily outlive some new garbage PC.
Not really, most laptops lack upgradablity and you have no idea what state the battery is going to be in.
Dell sells Linux laptops too don’t they?
Every laptop manufacturers sell linux laptops they just dont know it.
Framework is a bit different, it has direct support for their hardware drivers on many linux distros and endorses linux to be installed on their laptops.
OP doesn’t want to pay the extra $120 for an OS he’s never gonna use. Yes everyone sells a Linux laptop but there’s a few companies that won’t charge you for Windows on top of that.
Thank you, it seems the point of this meme is lost on some Lemmings :D
Dell isn’t paying anywhere near $120 for windows. Only end users buying a one off license pay that much.
Right . . . but Dell ship select models with Ubuntu preinstalled, these certified devices come with their OEM package which has support for their drivers, etc. and obvs by selling them with Linux, they are endorsing it on their select models of laptops as well.
Never knew that.
They’ve been doing it for a very long time now. I’m currently using a 2015 model, Dell Tablet. It has Linux support. Cost me about $250 (with a copy of W10 Pro), a few years back. I also got it with the hard shell keyboard dock, effectively making it a net book.
It’s been a great device, but probably isn’t what OP is looking for.
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Yes, but all the budget laptops from them I can find don’t have that option. Only a few select higher-end gaming models come with Linux.
“Your laptop’s sticker price already includes windows license fee. You’re welcome!”
– Microsoft
In Europe, laptops without an operating system (often referred to as DOS installed) are available. Prices start from 300 EUR.
I am in Europe but these laptops are rare in the low price end unfortunately.
Perhaps it depends on the country. In any case, I recommend buying the laptop that suits you best in terms of price and not paying attention to the operating system. I just set a filter in the online store for “Ryzen 5” and I don’t see any difference in price between laptops with Windows and laptops without the operating system. It’s better to find out how well the laptop supports Linux.
Friend: “What’s your system specs?”
Me: “12-core Ryzen CPU, 64GB RAM, 3080ti GPU”
F: “Nice. What games do you play?”
M: “Games…? Is that what else people do with these things?”
These days it’s not uncommon to have a powerful GPU just for AI acceleration.
The bigger issue for me is every device advertised to be linux based and privacy oriented is >400$ usually around 700-800$
I understand that tech savy IT people are usually financially cushy enough that they can eat a almost thousand dollar bill on their laptop and not think twice about it but man I just can’t ever see myself willing to shell out that much cash for a fancy laptop with physical kill switches or modularbility. Bring that price tag down a couple hundred dollars system 76 and Purism, then well talk. Until then the dude on ebay selling librebooted ghostpads are more likely to get my money.
Here in the EU there are a few companies selling rebranded Tongfang or Clevo barebones without an OS. Some are Linux-oriented like Tuxedo, Slimbook or LaptopmetLinux, some are general-purpose or gaming oriented like Schenker/XMG.
Slimbook Elemental 14 start at around 600€, Tuxedo Aura 14 starts at around 840€ for what looks to be the same SKU but a bit more storage.
Where are you located and what’s your budget ? It might help point you in the right direction.
Check out system76
A little overpriced but nice hardware and support
I’ve got a System76 Pangolin. It’s ok for the price (a bit pricey).I’m going with frame.work next though - while frame.work is even pricier, the upgradability is to die for.
Get a used ThinkPad, OP
Have two already.
Damn that’s more than me (I have 1)
A lot of the time you aren’t actually paying for the license afaik. If you look at a pre built and spec it out on PC part picker, the pre built can often come at a lower price bc the PC is subsidized with payment from the bloatware that is pre installed (think McAfee). Microsoft also sells the licenses in bulk to the store for huge discounts. Windows business model is a lot more about selling you 365 and your data than the operating system.
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Oh wow linux laptop, so cheap, while I appreciate their existence, if you’re on a budget an old (t480,t440p) lenovo will do fine for most purposes, otherwise build a desktop.
Lenovo has official support for Ubuntu on all laptops which translates very well to other distros. IMO the Thinkbook gen 6 having fully upgradable ram and decent specs is a really good deal for a Linux laptop *when on sale
Yet they don’t sell laptops without windows in my country.
Buy a second hand machine, try before buying, choose a ThinkPad. Mine is going strong 5 years now, daily work driver.
I already have a used ThinkPad and have been using it for many years. I’m trying to get a second laptop, but for reasons I can’t choose a used one. Only new machines and in a low price bracket. There’s just nothing that comes without preinstalled Windows and associated tax.
EDIT: Why is this getting downvoted?
Maybe find a Chromebook you can install Linux on?
That’s a cool project, but I need something with a little more power than a Chromebook.
I see, well you’ll probably have to either eat the cost or contact a small seller directly and see if he can do a device without Windows for lower price. Worst case scenario you’ll get denied.
I had 2 (actully much more) options when buying my laptop. Good laptop with windows or a liitle better laptop without windows for 200€ less.
It’s sad when you figure out why most people are broke.
I would say “install unregistered windows, run MAS,” but unfortunately we can’t expect that to be common knowledge. And, if it were common knowledge, MAS probably wouldn’t exist anymore either.
Are you only looking for a laptop? Others have said a lot about it. I want to add that in desktop\net-top\mini-pc markets it’s easier to encounter no-OS solutions. Some of them are very cheap and small, that small you can mount them behind a monitor and call it a day. I’m sorry if it’s not up your lane.
There are new laptops without os preinstalled (freedos actually installed) i bought my hp255g8 Ryzen 5700u laptop few years ago that way
