Just look at the Lemmy (highly Progressive demographic) comments around this protest. Lots of “I will not vote for genocide” comments all around.
And bringing up that their refusal to vote for Hillary for similar protests, I.E. “I will not vote for DNC corruption” , contributed to Trumps 2016 win, that resulted in generations of damage, all you get is denials, that the DNC made them do it.
So yeah. Academically, you’re right. They are not saying they will not vote for Biden in the general election. But if the progressive dialog around this protest is any indicator, there are many who will not.
Progressives are the easiest vote to disenfranchise. All it takes is one wedge issue, and they are out.
And take note on who they’re talking to when they say to not vote:
It’s ALWAYS Biden voters. They have been told and shown how Trump will do the same if not worse- but they still scream their bad faith propaganda at Biden voters anyway.
Progressives are the easiest vote to disenfranchise. All it takes is one wedge issue, and they are out.
And then you have the corollary on the other side - for some on the far right, all it takes is one wedge issue to drive them in. Gun control, abortion, etc. I think that’s why we have to have an uphill battle every four years.
Your right with respect to the never Hillary / DNC corruption crowd. The problem now is the “wedge issue” your referring to right now is a literal genocide. The morality of an endorsement of Biden being complicit, if not directly supporting through gifts of arms, in the knowing murder of tens of thousands of civilians, actively protecting the aggressor in the UN, is just so starkly different.
It’s plainly wrong now, and the history that is written of the US support for this genocide will be ugly and dark. Sometime many years from now my daughter may learn about this and ask what I did, and so is my answer that I voted to support the leader who made the genocide possible because that was the lessor of two evils? Perhaps that’s the right choice, Trump and Republicans are objectively worse for her future, but “Yes I supported Genocide Joe, but…” is not a very satisfying answer.
Another problem though is enthusiasm. I may ultimately vote for the lessor of two evils, but I can’t imagine feeling inspired to donate or knock on doors for the genocide candidate.
Ok, so you’re on the fence about taking the bait on the genocide wedge issue. I get it, Gaza is a travesty.
But voting Red or Blue doesn’t change that. Voting independent or not voting doesn’t change that. There is no way that anyone who is against supporting Isreal will win this election. 0 chance.
Genocide in Ukraine and beyond actually is on the table, though. If Trump wins, the US will stop Ukraine support on day 1, and actually be actively discouraging NATO support, at best. And that’s just genocide, let alone everything else Trump will destroy.
If your thinking about your conscience long term, think about that.
That’s fair. Another option, which might sound crazy but hear me out, is maybe the president just stops funding genocide. Fucking Regan told Israel to stop fighting in Lebanon and they did. So maybe our democratic president, dependent on left wing voters for support, should think about having at least as much balls as Regan. Then maybe Biden wouldn’t have to avoid college campuses: https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1763606297214152819
Instead of worrying about whether people like me will ultimately swallow support for one genocide in favor of protecting other issues, maybe worry about the 120 year old guy willing to tank his reelection just to support a genocide. If Biden loses it’s not because lefties didn’t fall in line, it’s because Biden failed as a leader in building a coalition. We ended up with Trump the first time cause Hillary was a shit politician. We’ll end up with Trump again for the same reason.
No it’ll be because of you, and when you’re getting dragged away. Your ideals, won’t matter. But having installed a flat out dictator (that will 100% support Israel and destroy the Ukraine). You’re going to say " I didn’t vote against the dictator but it’s not my fault!"
But hey! In your own mind you can blame someone else! That’ll make it alright? When LGBTQs are getting run down in the streets, it’s legal to rape women, and religious indoctrination invades every facet of American life. You can sit back be smug and say I did that!
No the wedge issue, is losing everyone in THIS COUNTRY the right to vote FOREVER.
You think the first round of Trump was bad, when he gets back in because of fucktards like you. He ain’t leaving, and it won’t be pretty for any of you “progressive”, I’m voting my ideals types.
All it takes is one wedge issue, and they [progressives] are out.
More like all it takes is one Republican president to completely destroy the country. The fact that we’re even at this point, despite all the “checks and balances” should tell you that the “generational damage” is unavoidable at this point. What’s really gross is that liberals assign the blame to other leftists rather than uniting on these causes and forcing Biden and the DNC to be better.
I’d like to make an analogy. This is a much lower-stakes example, but several years ago, there was a huge push in the gaming community to stop preordering. If a development company hits their sales numbers with preorders, why bother delivering what you promised? Why bother even delivering a working game?
It is the same in politics. By giving the DNC and Biden your vote now, by loudly proclaiming that Biden is the only choice, you are saying that there is no need for course correction. There is no need for them to push harder on healthcare, or climate change, or wealth inequality, or any other issue, because you’ve given your power away. And because of that, we stay at the brink of collapse (and arguably inch closer), where one Republican president is all it takes to destroy everything we’ve tried to build in this country.
Edit: I really should clarify that we lose our power by not seriously considering other candidates and political parties. I don’t want to advocate for simply not voting. There are people out there who want the job but don’t want to bend the knee to capitalists.
So your solution is to just hand the country over to the Nazis because you don’t want to accept that “not Nazis” is good enough.
Smart.
Edit - I know that’s reductionist, but I’ve had this argument too much. My comment above highlights a way to course correct in the democratic way, without condemning this country to the Republicans to a point of no return.
I’d say the idea of using the primary to voice concerns about what’s happening in Gaza is the least harmful path for people who really care about stopping fascism in both countries. Dems need to really hear that there is a problem that needs to be addressed, and voting uncommitted is literally the least you can do.
Dems stand to lose a lot of votes if they continue to be silent for the “hug Bibi” policy.
Also, sorry, but I don’t understand what alternative you’re suggesting for this course-correction. Can you clarify?
For the record, my proposal is to hash this conversation out during the primaries and then go all-hands on deck for Dems in November. Because we have to.
I was mistaken, the comment I was referring to was in a different comment thread
Basically, promote progressives in the lower elections, get the foundation needed for a progressive presidential candidate to succeed.
I’m glad that you have the mindset to vote blue in the end. My issue here is that a lot of Lemmy progressives have at least indicated that they will boycott the party come November. Which is a big fucking problem.
And messaging like this only serves to siphon off votes, despite the technical distinction between primary and general elections.
I agree there’s a problem, and I agree about supporting progressive candidates when available.
I think this is being taken as the only option mostly because a lot of strong progressive voices sat out this primary.
Fair enough, to your point about people on Lemmy planning to make mistakes in November. I suspect those people aren’t the same ones voting uncommitted in the primary, though.
I mostly see those as motivated progressives trying to raise an alarm so Dems can course correct here. If Dems listened, they might give us more ammo to persuade those Lemmy users who aren’t on board.
I understand your position, and I worry what will happen if Trump wins as well. But my position is not “hand the country over to Nazis.” My position is actually “we are currently handing our country over to Nazis and we need to stop!”
Just look at the Lemmy (highly Progressive demographic) comments around this protest. Lots of “I will not vote for genocide” comments all around.
And bringing up that their refusal to vote for Hillary for similar protests, I.E. “I will not vote for DNC corruption” , contributed to Trumps 2016 win, that resulted in generations of damage, all you get is denials, that the DNC made them do it.
So yeah. Academically, you’re right. They are not saying they will not vote for Biden in the general election. But if the progressive dialog around this protest is any indicator, there are many who will not.
Progressives are the easiest vote to disenfranchise. All it takes is one wedge issue, and they are out.
And take note on who they’re talking to when they say to not vote:
It’s ALWAYS Biden voters. They have been told and shown how Trump will do the same if not worse- but they still scream their bad faith propaganda at Biden voters anyway.
And then you have the corollary on the other side - for some on the far right, all it takes is one wedge issue to drive them in. Gun control, abortion, etc. I think that’s why we have to have an uphill battle every four years.
Your right with respect to the never Hillary / DNC corruption crowd. The problem now is the “wedge issue” your referring to right now is a literal genocide. The morality of an endorsement of Biden being complicit, if not directly supporting through gifts of arms, in the knowing murder of tens of thousands of civilians, actively protecting the aggressor in the UN, is just so starkly different.
It’s plainly wrong now, and the history that is written of the US support for this genocide will be ugly and dark. Sometime many years from now my daughter may learn about this and ask what I did, and so is my answer that I voted to support the leader who made the genocide possible because that was the lessor of two evils? Perhaps that’s the right choice, Trump and Republicans are objectively worse for her future, but “Yes I supported Genocide Joe, but…” is not a very satisfying answer.
Another problem though is enthusiasm. I may ultimately vote for the lessor of two evils, but I can’t imagine feeling inspired to donate or knock on doors for the genocide candidate.
It’s a fucked situation.
Ok, so you’re on the fence about taking the bait on the genocide wedge issue. I get it, Gaza is a travesty.
But voting Red or Blue doesn’t change that. Voting independent or not voting doesn’t change that. There is no way that anyone who is against supporting Isreal will win this election. 0 chance.
Genocide in Ukraine and beyond actually is on the table, though. If Trump wins, the US will stop Ukraine support on day 1, and actually be actively discouraging NATO support, at best. And that’s just genocide, let alone everything else Trump will destroy.
If your thinking about your conscience long term, think about that.
That’s fair. Another option, which might sound crazy but hear me out, is maybe the president just stops funding genocide. Fucking Regan told Israel to stop fighting in Lebanon and they did. So maybe our democratic president, dependent on left wing voters for support, should think about having at least as much balls as Regan. Then maybe Biden wouldn’t have to avoid college campuses: https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1763606297214152819
Instead of worrying about whether people like me will ultimately swallow support for one genocide in favor of protecting other issues, maybe worry about the 120 year old guy willing to tank his reelection just to support a genocide. If Biden loses it’s not because lefties didn’t fall in line, it’s because Biden failed as a leader in building a coalition. We ended up with Trump the first time cause Hillary was a shit politician. We’ll end up with Trump again for the same reason.
No it’ll be because of you, and when you’re getting dragged away. Your ideals, won’t matter. But having installed a flat out dictator (that will 100% support Israel and destroy the Ukraine). You’re going to say " I didn’t vote against the dictator but it’s not my fault!"
But hey! In your own mind you can blame someone else! That’ll make it alright? When LGBTQs are getting run down in the streets, it’s legal to rape women, and religious indoctrination invades every facet of American life. You can sit back be smug and say I did that!
Also not voting doesn’t make you complicit lol. Fucking Lemmy’s.
Example #36473 of Dems being weirdly gleeful talking about all the terrible things Republicans are going to do to women an queer people.
I wonder why people don’t trust you guys lol
How is he a dictator? Also he will die soon. So not a long dictatorship. Maybe not even a full term.
No the wedge issue, is losing everyone in THIS COUNTRY the right to vote FOREVER.
You think the first round of Trump was bad, when he gets back in because of fucktards like you. He ain’t leaving, and it won’t be pretty for any of you “progressive”, I’m voting my ideals types.
With “allies” like you who needs republicans
Seriously…fucking libs.
More like all it takes is one Republican president to completely destroy the country. The fact that we’re even at this point, despite all the “checks and balances” should tell you that the “generational damage” is unavoidable at this point. What’s really gross is that liberals assign the blame to other leftists rather than uniting on these causes and forcing Biden and the DNC to be better.
I’d like to make an analogy. This is a much lower-stakes example, but several years ago, there was a huge push in the gaming community to stop preordering. If a development company hits their sales numbers with preorders, why bother delivering what you promised? Why bother even delivering a working game?
It is the same in politics. By giving the DNC and Biden your vote now, by loudly proclaiming that Biden is the only choice, you are saying that there is no need for course correction. There is no need for them to push harder on healthcare, or climate change, or wealth inequality, or any other issue, because you’ve given your power away. And because of that, we stay at the brink of collapse (and arguably inch closer), where one Republican president is all it takes to destroy everything we’ve tried to build in this country.
Edit: I really should clarify that we lose our power by not seriously considering other candidates and political parties. I don’t want to advocate for simply not voting. There are people out there who want the job but don’t want to bend the knee to capitalists.
So your solution is to just hand the country over to the Nazis because you don’t want to accept that “not Nazis” is good enough.
Smart.
Edit - I know that’s reductionist, but I’ve had this argument too much. My comment above highlights a way to course correct in the democratic way, without condemning this country to the Republicans to a point of no return.
I’d say the idea of using the primary to voice concerns about what’s happening in Gaza is the least harmful path for people who really care about stopping fascism in both countries. Dems need to really hear that there is a problem that needs to be addressed, and voting uncommitted is literally the least you can do.
Dems stand to lose a lot of votes if they continue to be silent for the “hug Bibi” policy.
Also, sorry, but I don’t understand what alternative you’re suggesting for this course-correction. Can you clarify?
For the record, my proposal is to hash this conversation out during the primaries and then go all-hands on deck for Dems in November. Because we have to.
I was mistaken, the comment I was referring to was in a different comment thread
Basically, promote progressives in the lower elections, get the foundation needed for a progressive presidential candidate to succeed.
I’m glad that you have the mindset to vote blue in the end. My issue here is that a lot of Lemmy progressives have at least indicated that they will boycott the party come November. Which is a big fucking problem.
And messaging like this only serves to siphon off votes, despite the technical distinction between primary and general elections.
I agree there’s a problem, and I agree about supporting progressive candidates when available.
I think this is being taken as the only option mostly because a lot of strong progressive voices sat out this primary.
Fair enough, to your point about people on Lemmy planning to make mistakes in November. I suspect those people aren’t the same ones voting uncommitted in the primary, though.
I mostly see those as motivated progressives trying to raise an alarm so Dems can course correct here. If Dems listened, they might give us more ammo to persuade those Lemmy users who aren’t on board.
I for one already voted uncommitted, and unless the genocidal ethnostate gets cut loose I’m not voting for Biden in November
I hear you. Hope the administration hears you too, for all our sakes.
I understand your position, and I worry what will happen if Trump wins as well. But my position is not “hand the country over to Nazis.” My position is actually “we are currently handing our country over to Nazis and we need to stop!”