- cross-posted to:
- firefox@lemmy.ml
- foss@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- firefox@lemmy.ml
- foss@beehaw.org
- Mozilla has reinstated previously banned Firefox add-ons in Russia that were designed to circumvent state censorship, such as a VPN and a tool to access Tor websites.
- The ban was initially imposed at the request of Russia’s internet censorship agency, Roskomnadzor, but Mozilla lifted it to support an open and accessible internet.
- Mozilla’s decision reflects its commitment to users in Russia and globally, despite the potential risks associated with the regulatory environment in Russia.
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Russia is 100% going to force local ISPs and local VPN developers to block Mozilla domains.
That said, good for Mozilla for doing what’s right, even if it means their installed base will get decimated in Russia.
They don’t even need to force it. Every ISP in Russia has government-managed DPI hardware that filters all use traffic performs such blocking. No cooperation from ISPs is necessary.
Correct. The cooperation has already happened.
how fkd up is the sh1t really out there? This is unheard of.
It’s not Chinese GFW level fkdup.
Also legally the initial versions of this thing are from 2005, I think? Rather old. Just nobody cared.
They absolutely can implement China-level censorship right now, they have technical capabilities. In fact there have already been tests of complete isolation from foreign internet in remote regions of Russia.
They just don’t use it much, yet. I guess they are afraid of consequences and prefer to let people live pretending that nothing has changed. He will go slow with it. Russia is still tightly integrated with western culture and economy (e.g. they have a strong IT industry and internet isolation will kill it for good). Russian culture has been aligning itself with European culture for centuries. They watch western movies and tv shows, read western books, half of the memes they use are from anglophone internet, etc. They are much closer culturally to Europe than to China, even despite all the politics.
Also legally the initial versions of this thing are from 2005, I think? Rather old. Just nobody cared.
2014 is when it started for real. At first the laws were rather innocuous (protect the children and stuff). But with each year they were “improved” to become more and more oppressive. Putin is smart enough to realize that if you do it incrementally then there will be less protests and he will appear as a good guy, “protecting the people”. It was the same with “foreign agent” laws.
They don’t have the processing power (I think) and the competencies are below those of Chinese censors.
Russian culture has been aligning itself with European culture for centuries.
“Aligning”? I mean, most of the EU is not northwestern Europe either.
They watch western movies and tv shows, read western books, half of the memes they use are from anglophone internet, etc.
Yes and no, in general Russians don’t know\use English too well, it’s not like the Scandinavian countries, Russian-speaking space is big enough to be mostly using Russian.
They are much closer culturally to Europe than to China, even despite all the politics.
Politics are more about claiming to be some “non-degenerate” part of Europe or orthogonal to culture.
That aside, before the Mongols (the original central) Russia was just a weird backwater of Europe (with some dynastic marriages between pre-Norman English royalty and Russian princes, for example).
After the Mongols it was maybe too strange for western Europeans, but not for the east.
Since Peter it was LARP’ing as normal European monarchy, during Catherine’s reign it kinda was one (not weirder or more despotic than Austria), after that it was just too agrarian and underdeveloped, but not particularly weird still.
The White movement was pretty proto-fascist, and their winning adversaries were LARP’ing after one bearded graphomaniac who called his ideas “German ideology”. That particular period ended in the 80s and 90s with attempts to LARP after the USA.
EDIT: Forgot about the actual point of your comment:
2014 is when it started for real.
Nah, SORM with all the same arguments was legislated and, well, deployed much earlier, somewhere in the early 00s and I’m not even sure it started then. It was the cleartext web, if you remember, with unencrypted ICQ, unencrypted HTTP, unencrypted FTP and such things. Much easier to work in such an environment.
At first the laws were rather innocuous (protect the children and stuff). But with each year they were “improved” to become more and more oppressive. Putin is smart enough to realize that if you do it incrementally then there will be less protests and he will appear as a good guy, “protecting the people”. It was the same with “foreign agent” laws.
They weren’t. Russian laws were quite surveillance-friendly to begin with in 1999, just in the 00s economy was on the rise and the state appeared benevolent, so everybody learned to ignore this.
And no, it’s not about appearing a good guy. It’s about making people protest as much and as earlier as possible to morally exhaust them.
I guess it’s worth it when the other option is to basically become a state controlled tool that doesn’t offer any good for the Russian people.
I’m more worried that this will give malicious non-state actors and, worse still, the Russian government easier access to Russian citizens seeking the ability to look behind the veil. The result of this repression will be inexperienced folks downloading an exe and quietly being logged as a dissident or innocent people finding their information compromised or hardware hijacked. Sourcing clean, difficult to track downloads of these addons and Firefox will become important in the near future.
This is what Tor exists for
Absolutely true! But tor can be more than a bit intimidating for new users. Many people hold preconceptions that may prevent them from using it, much less browsing a .onion. “Install Firefox and 4 addons” seems like a layperson’s simplest start and simplifying access to information is indescribably useful. As I said, I do not disagree.
Sadly blocked in russia
How can they block tor?!
Probably the protocol itself. Bridges exist though.
I’m wondering where all the people that filled the other threads complaining about how Mozilla was evil and “enshittifying” are, now.
There’s nothing to be outraged about, so I guess not here.
I was one, I’ll admit it and I’m glad I was wrong
As far as why? Because FF/Mozilla positions themselves as THE browser for privacy and “For the people”, but Mozilla is also a for-profit company so I’m always expecting the worst out of them just like I have for so many other for-profit companies
Just look at Canonical, they’re pursuing an IPO RN and are already in the early stages of enshittification because of it.
Canonical has been in the early stages of enshittification for a dozen years.
Mozilla is a non profit organisation.
You’re basically mad because you’re misinformed, not because of reality.
They’re both; Mozilla Foundation, the non-profit org, is the parent of Mozilla Corporation, the for-profit organization I’m talking about.
Mozilla Corporation is in charge of distribution of the official download and development coordination and some other things. Now the Foundation is in charge over them admittedly, but I see that as a bit like playing with fire.
I wouldn’t say mad, more…just prepared for the worst
I was one . And I am glad to have been wrong .
Maybe those expressions had a part in Mozilla’s reversal?
What are you taking a victory lap for exactly?
If anything, a small victory lap is for all those people you sound smug about.
Ah, so one of those people did show up.
Don’t feed the trolls folks
You’re right, I should know better.
Whatever helps you sleep at night
?
God, I hate fanboyism. Maybe, maybe the criticism was warranted? idk just a thought. If someone fucks up everyone can point it out. Of course there are always people who will defend and deny anything no matter what… like star citizen fans or hardcore apple fans
Now we can see that they corrected some of their mistakes, very good
But nah some ripcord must try to stir shit instead of enjoying the good news. Apparently being still salty about bad comments smearing their favourite company…
Yeah well Mozilla is probably on of the more ok things to fanboy if someone absolutely can’t live without that but it’s still a bit cringe
Let them be on the wrong side of history lol I simply do not understand people who go out of their way to attack Mozilla/firefox. It’s baffling.
I was one too. Glad they caved to the criticisms and reinstated the extension. It doesn’t absolve them of removing it in the first place and trying to pull a sneaky, but at least they listened.
Where are we now? Well wherever we are it sounds like us internet moaners stay winning.
That’s one way of viewing it i guess. My guess would have been that an organization like Mozilla has to make sure what the consequences are for not complying, and after they figured out there was no real danger they did the right thing.
It’s easy to say they should always do the right thing, but they have to keep in mind their own safety, and that of their project too, it’s not an easy thing to balance.
Eh, I don’t think the Russian government would literally send hundreds of assassins abroad to kill everyone associated with the project and DDOS their website and whatnot for not complying with an internet censorship request but I see your point
Who’s talking about abroad? Maybe they have peoplke in russia working on the project and they need to check their safety?
Well, the sole idea that they accepted this in the first place is a pretty bad sign… anyway, firefox is still the best option we have
They…didn’t. As they said, and keeps getting repeated over and over here, they temporarily disabled it while they figured out their options. I’m guessing involving lawyers.
Then they decided.
I hate to say it, but I’m inclined to think that the Russian government may simply block access to Firefox (and the Firefox addons site).
https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share
Firefox has 2.82% marketshare as of May 2024. It’d create disruption to block it, but I’d expect that that’s probably low enough that it’s not in the “too big to kill” category.
If it were 2010, then yeah, I’d say that the price to pay for blocking Firefox is maybe one that’s too high for the Kremlin to be willing to pay.
What’s really clobbered Firefox has been the rise of smartphones, where Firefox has very limited uptake.
I use Firefox on both my phone and desktop, so I can say that it’s definitely usable…but it’s not the default. Google owns Android and uses their browser as the default, and Apple owns iOS and uses their browser as the default. I would bet that a very low proportion of smartphone users are ever going to seek out and install a different browser, and Firefox can only really compete for the users who are willing to do that.
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They can kill access to the Firefox website and prevent people from getting access to the addon (well, okay, if you can manually find an .xpi, and have the technical chops to do so, you can download it elsewhere and install it locally).
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Seems like some third-party hosting is in order to support any Rebellion Russians.
Aside from blocking the add-ons site, they might block the update servers. Linux wouldn’t be affected I think (unless they block rpm, apt… As a whole), but on windows I think it updates from Firefox servers directly.
There are probably ways around it, but it’s a burden for the windows users.
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I bet ready to run copies of Firefox with Russian anti censorship add ons is going to be real popular on the very numerous Russian putacy sites.
Yeah, but a browser isn’t something that you probably want to be getting from an untrusted source. Hell, random malware aside, the Kremlin themselves could probably just actively distribute a modified Firefox, see what people who don’t want to be blocked are getting up to and grab their credentials to websites.
I mean, there are ways to do it. You find some alternate source that you trust to get a hash of a browser release or a copy of signing keys or something and get a signature from someone you trust and validate that, but that’s narrowing down the pool of people for whom the browser is accessible a long ways.
I mean, yeah, if I were in Russia, I’d probably use an SSH tunnel to get out. They can block VPN providers that don’t apply the government blocklist, but I don’t believe that they’re prepared to kill outbound SSH. But the government just needs to block the vast majority, and the vast majority aren’t gonna be doing that.
Like, you make the path of least resistance to live in an information bubble, then make the resistance to doing something else high enough, and you’ve got the 99.9% solution that you need.
Desperate people in desperate times.
They will force local ISPs and Russian VPN companies to block access to Mozilla’s domains. Same thing China has been doing with the Great Firewall for years.
Just to be clear, mozilla.org is not blocked in China
I hate to say it, but I’m inclined to think that the Russian government may simply block access to Firefox (and the Firefox addons site).
Probably true, but that’s not justification for Mozilla to save them the trouble by doing it for them.
What’s really clobbered Firefox has been the rise of smartphones, where Firefox has very limited uptake.
That’s fucking crazy, because Firefox has been far better than the default options for as long as I’ve had a smartphone. I only recently dumped chrome on desktop for Firefox, but I took one look at Chrome when I got an android and immediately dumped that shit.
They did that a few times before without any warning, which is why I’m inclined to think it’s Mozilla using the situation for PR. I mean, why not, if the Russian government presents them with an opportunity.
In that case why block the add-ons in the first place? There is a risk that the “Mozilla is blocking privacy friendly add-ons on the behest of an authoritarian regime!” news will become more widely known than any correction. If it had been a planned PR move then any person involved in it should never work in marketing again.
Wow. That was a lot more temporary than I anticipated.
They did say they were just doing it temporarily until they looked at options and figured out what to do.
But yeah, it’s nice it didn’t take long to decide.
I think it was an intentional PR action.
Since they can’t be afraid of their services getting blocked in Russia, they’ve been a few periods already without any warning.
I’m glad to hear that!
Some Mozilla execs are going to get tossed out of windows.
Can we know the name of this mysterious addon by now? Are the authors of these reports afraid to be poisoned by putin if they say it?
They’re threatened by Russia.
Did you read past the headline? They’re restoring add-ons banned by the Russian government, defying Russia.
Teeeechnically that could mean Russia is threatening them over it, in which case they are threatened by Russia. But that’s just me being a pedantic pain in the ass before bed.
