If only we had the technology to open doors without power. One day, perhaps.
But how do you integrate a subscription fee into analog doors? You can‘t enshitify that!!
There is a manual door release that works without power, but only from the inside. She had just loaded the child in their car seat, shut the door then went to the driver door to get in and couldn’t open it.
The doors are on the 12V side of the system, you can use jumper cables to connect an external battery from another vehicle (including ICE vehicles) to power the door under normal circumstances. But with a kid trapped in the car in AZ, I wouldn’t wait for that either.
It a pretty rare combinations of circumstances, but there’s something to be said for manual keys still used on other vehicles with keyless entry.
How would you connect the battery with jumper cables if you’re locked out?
Or the foresight to have a small backup battery unit used exclusively for emergencies like say when the battery goes out or when someone reverses their car into a lake. The fact these are such death traps shows just how bad the US is when it comes to giving a flying fuck about people over money.
And all the while Elon is touted as some kind of super Lex Lutherian genius.
Honestly if I wrote a fictional book with some of the shit he’s done and how the world looks at him publishers would throw it back in my face as being the most unbelievable POS they’ve read in the past 20 years.
have a small backup battery
As far as I understand, that 12V battery was that backup…
Nope it’s a separate battery used like in a normal car to power the low voltage stuff so you don’t have to use high grade power lines to run the windows and doors
During the pandemic my car sat in the garage until the battery died. After 7 hours of charging it, turned on the car and found the hybrid battery was almost full.
I get why the high and low voltage systems are separate, but damn that was one of those “Really!?” moments…
The 12V is not a backup, it’s the sole battery used to power electronics.
Not anymore, they’ve updated the platform to be 48v (which they shared the docs with the rest of the industry) and are using lithium batteries in both systems instead of lead acid. They’re supposedly supposed to last the lifetime of the vehicle instead of having to be replaced every 4-5 years.
https://insideevs.com/news/656775/tesla-switch-48v-voltage-system/
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That’s only the Cybertruck
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The 48V battery will become “the sole battery” for the electronics so nothing will change in that regard. They’re not connecting 400-1000v batteries to the electronics.
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Only the cyber truck. Model S and 3 refreshes are still on the legacy platform, with a lithium ion 12V.
The car’s owner, Renee Sanchez, was taking her granddaughter to the zoo, but after loading the child in the Model Y, she closed the door and wasn’t able to open it again. “My phone key wouldn’t open it,” Sanchez said in an interview with Arizona’s Family. “My car key wouldn’t open it.” She called emergency services, and firefighters were dispatched to help.
Just so nobody thinks someone left a kid in the car and then went into a store or something. Tesla should be paying for the broken window repair at the very least.
Also, this is similar to a use case that Telsa likes to promote. They allow you to leave the climate on while the car is locked.
This makes me never want to trust the dog and camp modes they advertise.
In this specific example, I believe the driver buckled the child, closed the door, then was unable to open any door before starting the vehicle. Is it possible to either start the vehicle or at least turn on the climate control from outside? If not, this was a horribly dangerous situation.
Yeah, this wasn’t even intentional. The car just shit out while she was getting the car situated. Very scary.
Failsafe.
Fail Safe.
Fail Open.
Elon is why we need to write safety regulations. He’s the kind of guy who would put sawdust in your food and call it innovation.
Agree on your overall sentiment, though I’d say it is a bit more complicated than that for car doors. You don’t want it to fail and come open while moving, for example, especially if the car is coming to a stop and inertia forces the doors fully open. That Boeing door failed open and it was not very safe.
Vehicle doors should be fail functional rather than open to fail safe. As in designed to be very unlikely to fail and/or still functional even if one or several components do fail.
Edit: I normally avoid commenting on my downvotes (you win some, you lose some) but this one is baffling. What’s controversial or unpopular about what I said?
Sure, for the electrical part. But the door as a whole should Fail Open. You can pull over with an open door. You should not have to break the door to escape after a failure.
I’d say it is a bit more complicated than that for car doors.
Car doors work fine on every car but a Tesla. They aren’t some new technology invented by Tesla where design flaws like this are understandable. Tesla just does things so badly that they invent brand new dangers that only exist with their vehicles.
You don’t want it to fail and come open
That isn’t what “fail open” means. It doesn’t mean that the moment the battery dies all the doors fly open. It means that when the battery dies the doors aren’t latched shut like a bank safe.
At a minimum, the key should offer a way to open the car from the outside when the battery is dead. It’s completely asinine to put the only emergency latch on the inside of the car where you can’t use it, especially since it is hidden so deep most people can’t find it without the manual.
What’s controversial or unpopular about what I said?
You’re giving Elon Musk’s awful cars the benefit of a doubt by pretending that this isn’t a completely reckless design flaw that should never have existed in the first place, and you are deliberately misinterpreting what “fail open” means to make it sound like a ridiculous solution instead of the industry safety best practice that it actually is.
Also, you’re complaining about downvotes, so expect even more now I guess.
Car doors that aren’t on teslas don’t fail open, they are reliable enough that I can’t think of hearing about any failures that don’t involve a collision and deforming of the door (in which case it’s a fail closed and they use the jaws of life to get people out, or another door).
An electronic latch is either engaged or it isn’t. Fail open would mean that in the absence of an electronic signal saying it should be closed, the latch will default to not being engaged, which would mean there’s nothing holding the door closed if another force acts on it.
Don’t assume any benefit of the doubt about Tesla’s. I made no comment one way or another about what I think of their doors vs other doors. For the record, I agree completely that they fucked up this part of the design. The purpose of my comment was to say that taking that design and adding “fail open” to it won’t fix it. Fail open and fail closed both have problems with an electronic latch and the only way to fix it without causing other big problems is to design it in a way that still functions as a door that can be open or latched closed whether or not the electronic part of the latch is working.
And I’m “deliberately misinterpreting” what fail open means? I’m having trouble understanding how it can mean anything other than how I’m interpreting it, even with your clarification, given the disagreement about other car doors failing open. Maybe it’s a misnomer that I’m misinterpreting but why are you assuming I’m doing this in bad faith?
The downvotes themselves don’t matter, I asked because I wanted to know the reasoning behind them, well aware that bringing them up at all will probably result in more of them.
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Sounds like journalists can just make shit up and publish it. “Telsa declined to comment.” so I guess it’s true until corrected.
Does it also send a poop emoji now?
Whenever essential functions (e.g. access) are powered, they’re supposed to have manual overrides. I’m pretty sure this is a regulatory requirement even here in the States where we’re stupid and regulatory agencies are mostly captured.
So WTF happened, Tesla? Where’s the manual override for when the battery fails?
It’s basic safety for industrial plants to designate powered equipment as “fail open” or “fail closed” or on/off. It’s shocking that this wasn’t applied to Tesla cars.
We really need an industry that performs industrial grade HAZOPs on consumer products and publishes a report for everyone to see.
That’s for if you’re inside, a mechanical access has to exist on the outside as well, no?
No. You just need to be able to exit without power. Getting back in mechanically isn’t a requirement.
It should be, but it’s not.
Damn, even fighter jets have an external override. They’re even labeled for rescue workers.
You can also “jump” the car to open it via a 12V access port in the front.
Yeah, doesn’t help much in case of actual emergency does it?
Then break the fucking window if it’s an actual emergency.
They did
The child was safely removed from the car after firefighters used an ax to smash through a window
I know.
My response was to the previous comment.
In a non Tesla, if someone is locked in a car, what happens? There isn’t some secret “let me in” button. You just break a window. This is a dumb story.
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Lead acid batteries are notoriously hard to predict when they will fail. Other OEMs also fail at this often.
Tesla upgraded to lithium 12V batts some time ago, which are much more predictable and last 2-3x longer.
What? No they aren’t. They almost always fail on a curve of power and voltage loss.
Also, I didn’t look it up, but I’d be very surprised if the model Y tesla didn’t require (suggest and oem?) an AGM battery. It’s still lead, but due to how they’re made they can’t get a dead short in them like older regular lead acid batteries can once they get old, although it still isn’t very common for it to happen.
Yes they are. I used to test them for a living. It’s just a best guess.
No they aren’t. They degrade before they fail. If tesla wanted to provide a warning of a failing battery that pretty much always worked it could have wired in a load test and went off voltage drop under a heavier load.
Testing if batteries are good or bad does not qualify a person to chart out battery degradation.
No they aren’t.
Yes. They are. If they weren’t, no one would have these problems. But they all do. I know everyone likes to pour over them with a microscope and drool over their flaws because they’re Tesla, but many of the issues commonly attributed to them are common with all other OEMs, you just have a bunch of armchair engineers who don’t know WTF they’re talking about.
They degrade before they fail.
No shit
If tesla wanted to provide a warning of a failing battery that pretty much always worked it could have wired in a load test and went off voltage drop under a heavier load.
Once again, I did this for a living, for a decade. We would constantly have cars with failed batteries, we would bring them in, charge them up, test them, they would pass, we’d send them on their way, and they would fail again, and come back for replacement. Our load tests also tested the alternator.
I worked on BMWs for years and they would regularly come in with the same problem, with no warning, even though they had a similar detection algorithm that mostly worked.
Really interesting design decision. Was the main battery also dead? I’m guessing not. There’s a step-down converter under the rear seat that outputs 12-16 volts, Tesla could probably have fairly easily set the car up to power the doors from that when the auxiliary 12V battery dies.
Probably would still need the 12V battery to have enough charge to close the connection to the high voltage battery that would power the step down converter.
But yeah it seems dumb to me that most EVs don’t keep the 12V battery topped up from the high voltage battery somehow while the car is parked, but I’m not an electrical engineer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
There really shouldn’t need to be a 12V battery at all. Stepping the voltage down isn’t that complicated, but the supply chain for the necessary parts aren’t there for the car industry.
Plus, it’d be really nice if everything could run off a 48V line instead of 12V. The wires can be thinner due to less current draw. Getting that to work across all the electronics for everything is a whole separate level, though.
You don’t want to fully drain the main battery as it would do severe damage to it and most of the 12v system has a phantom draw of power so to keep the main battery from running out they have a separate one
Compared to what the main batt can provide, there’s barely any draw from the other electronics.
That’s not the point the fact is that there is some dumbass that probably will let it sit at 0% and kill the battery
Battery management electronics don’t let you drain lithium batteries to 0%. It’s a severe design flaw if it does.
You still end up with the same problem of no power for locks when it turns off the battery
Does the indoor lever (hidden) not work without the battery too?
Not sure, but 20 month old toddler…
The only sensible solution then is to ban toddlers from EVs. They’ll just have to walk.
Yes, the interior manual release works without power, but the only person in the car was a toddler in a car seat and they were not able to open it themselves.
Woke toddler was working for Big Baby to make Tesla look bad
Also, firefighters are just beefy sexy shills for the axe industry
Not even the door locks are mechanical? So much built-in obsolescence…
I haven’t has a car with mechanical locks in a long time. I’ve also not had a battery so dead the locks didn’t work.
There’s usually some sort of mechanical release for safety for stuff like this.
On the mach E, my understanding is there’s a panel where you hook up a jump box that supplies power to those circuits to allow you to use your key fob to open the door. But there’s no bladed key to manually unlock the car. So technically there’s a failsafe but it’s not ideal. And I agree it ought not be allowed.
how the fuck are you going to put power into the thing if you don’t have a charged battery
what the fuck is wrong with putting a door handle somewhere
Now imagine this happens in a remote area with no cell coverage. In Arizona those are a thing too.
No need for remoteness. Imagine you drive into water or battery catches fire. You aren’t opening those doors.
There is a manual release on the inside … So yes you are.
No you are not. People panic and default to most common behavior, this is why emergency exercises are a thing. In other words, the hidden manual release somewhere in the car that was never used is not going to be used in the moment of panic. You won’t even remember it exists.
Also, that’s only on some cars and only in the front. None on the back seat.
It is not hidden, covered, obfuscated, or even in a weird location. It’s literally sitting right on the door handle. Also even with a standard 1990 car with fully manual doors you are not going to be escaping out the doors if your car falls into water. The pressure differential of the water pushing against your door prevents you from opening it until the entire inside of the car has filled with water, MythBusters did a whole episode on this back in the day if you want to go find that for the full story. But the tldr is that once your car is in the water you’re only Escape options are to break the window, get the window rolled down, or wait until the entire car has filled with water and the pressure equalizes
Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models
I looked into all the manuals before posting that to make sure. Turns out they did improve on some models location of it. Which is commendable. But some are downright retarded. Am also well aware about effect of pressure and similar. Am less worried about the water than getting stranded in the car after crash or if battery catches on fire.
Also, thanks for the edit and correcting your statement. We live and we learn. Unless pride prevents us from doing so.
Easy enough to get out, if you have a couple braincells to rub together. The manual release is not hidden, covered, obfuscated, or even in a weird location. It’s literally right on the door handle
Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models
There was a time I wanted a Tesla, but I don’t anymore. This is just another reason why.
Does Tesla care about making a “neat thing” or do they care about making “a car that can drive me places”. The doors clearly show they prioritize making a “neat thing”, but I want a reliable car.
Opening and closing doors was a solved problem. Somehow Tesla made it worse.
Does Tesla care about making a “neat thing” or do they care about making “a car that can drive me places”
Neither. Care about making money.
I had something similar happen to me years ago in a Toyota minivan. The car stalled and died in traffic, some kind of electrical glitch. I got out to raise the hood. The door closed behind me and it came up with just enough battery to lock itself, with my keys in the ignition and my two babies and quadriplegic husband inside. It was 107° outside. And pre-cellphones. I bolted to the nearby gas station to call 911 and grab something to break a window. Meanwhile hubby tried to coach toddler how to wriggle out of car seat and open door, but straps were too snug. Firehouse was near, and the jammed traffic was all in one direction so they used the opposite side and didn’t take long, and they jimmied the door open quickly. But it was boiling in there. Sat the kids by the road to cool off with water and get checked by paramedics, gave water to husband in car with open doors, and waited for a tow to the gas station so I could lower the ramp and get my husband out. Meanwhile of course we made the traffic even worse, but people weren’t too mad when they saw our plight as they squeezed past.
I’m wondering, did some similar glitch happen here, or do Tesla doors lock every time they shut?
IDK about Tesla but yeah Toyotas like to lock themselves.
Auto-lock doors have been a nightmare in general. I always roll a window down at least far enough to stick an arm through every time I get out of a running car because of the one time forever ago that I left a 90s Pontiac Skylark running, shut the door, and it autolocked with the keys in the ignition and the motor running. I had to get my girlfriend to drive me back to my apartment for the spare key while the car was humming away, and I never forgot that. If I wasn’t close to home, with a helpful ride nearby, and a spare key on hand, I’d have been screwed.
Talk about features that need regulated out. All because suburban whites don’t want to remember to lock the doors as they drive through the black neighborhood so the car locks itself whenever you put it in Drive.
Every car I’ve driven with keyless ignition (which seems to be the standard now) refuses to lock if it detects the key inside the car, even if you try to do it manually by pressing the lock button, so hopefully this is a solved problem now.
I’ve honestly never heard of self-locking cars doors, that’s a crazy idea.
Our new keyless ignition vehicle wouldn’t fully close the hatch with the doors locked and the keys in the car. It would go down half way and play the “I can’t close” noise.
The fucking DOORS require a charged battery? Fuck that. That decision will age great in the next ten years. Not to mention emergency situations where the electrical system is compromised.
It’s worse than that: it requires the old school lead acid 12v battery to be charged, so even if the car’s battery is full, it doesn’t matter if that old car battery has failed
That’s not unique to Tesla EVs, but it being required to open the doors may be (the 12v lead acid runs the general vehicle electronics rather than down converting the 400v or 800v main battery… I don’t understand that decision, but I’m no electronics expert so there may be really good reasons for it…)
Let me start by stating that requiring the battery to open/close doors is a bad design choice overall. There should always be a way to open the door using a physical key.
Ok, having said that, the 12V is a better choice. It’s easier to replace a 12V battery in case it fails and forcing the main battery to power everything runs the risk of draining that. Li-Ion batteries don’t react well to being completely drained.
Besides, all EVs have a way to attach an external battery to the 12V system in case of total power failure, which will then allow you to do whatever you need. In case of Tesla Model Y there are two cables hidden in the tow eye cover that power the hood release. With the hood open you can charge the 12V battery directly.
There’s a release latch on the doors beside the “open door” buttons. I guess no I’ve else is pointing that out?
Pretty sure thats on the inside of the car and is actually covered as well. Release latch means shit in this situation, especially since car door design was more or less perfected over a hundred years ago at this point. Change for the sake of change is a damndable concept for tech.
I’ve had a couple of passengers open the door using the latch because they didn’t know about the Open Door button.
I’m not saying it’s a good design (it’s dumb) but you can get out when there is no power
what happens when a car catches fire because the electrical system is on fire and you can’t Open the door because it’s electric
There are manual releases on each door inside, but I’m surprised they don’t have them outside as well.
Reading more about it, I find that many only have manual releases on the front doors until recently and they have a connection point you’re meant to jump with power to unlock and open from the outside. I didn’t think anyone would be okay waiting for a jump to get their baby out, but then these people waited for firemen to break their window, so…
Hidden manual releases that still require you to push the door through the windows trim. FFS people have already died because of this shit. Why the hell hasn’t there been a mandatory recall on all Teslas over this?
It’s not fucking hidden, it’s right on the fucking door. Right there, in plain view. Fuck elon but equally fuck idiots who never read their manual or bother to learn fucking anything about a product then claim bullshit like that. Nothing about this is fucking hidden.
The rear doors also have one, that’s the only one you could argue is “hidden” as it’s in the little storage pocket area
Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models
A child isn’t going to find that. A rescuer who isn’t familiar with Teslas isn’t going to be able to find that.
I couldn’t even figure out how to open a fully functional door from outside the first time I got in a Tesla. I’m an adult who’s been driving my entire life.
That’s not innovation; it’s a safety hazard for the sake of the aesthetics of a handle that doesn’t stick out. I don’t view that as a reasonable trade-off.
At least it looks different than all the other door opening mechanisms. also rtfm before driving a car. Safety shouldn’t influence artistic choice btw.
I’m not reading the manual of the Uber I’m about to climb into. A firefighter isn’t going to read the manual of a car they’re trying to pry me out of.
I DO read the manual on the Kia I actually drive. To read about the recommendations for the tires. To read about replacing fuses. To find the load hauling capacity. Not how to open the fucking door.
safety shouldn’t influence artistic choice
Did you really just string those words together in all seriousness without a hint of irony? And that folks is exactly why we need the NHTSA.
Aesthetic choice should be more important than idiotic safety for personal vehicles. It should be every American’s right to drive vehicles that put them selves in higher danger, especially if it means proper defense from firefighters.
Did the batter die from extreme heat or due to the driver failing to charge the vehicle promptly?
Wrong battery. You’re thinking the high-voltage EV battery, but in this case, it was the 12V lead-acid accessory battery that died. Normally, that would be charged from the high voltage battery, if the car was running.
In this case, it might just have been bad luck with a worn-out battery.
Damn… thanks for the explanation!
