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When I lived in Germany for a while, my wife and I took a train across the country one winter to Munich for the Christmas markets. We stayed in a hostel and walked the streets, enjoying the various stalls. I’d never heard of Glüwein before (hot, mulled, spiced red wine), but it was fantastic! It was an amazing experience and we didn’t have to worry about parking lots or figuring out public transportation. Everything was within walking distance and we ended up touring all of Munich on foot.
I wish the US would get off its ass and get some high speed trains set up. We just need to keep oil and auto dealers out of the discussion because they keep shutting it down. Like Musk’s “Hyperloop” project, which he proposed to stop legislation from approving high speed trains, but then intentionally did nothing with, so we just don’t develop trains to replace his Tesla cars.
High speed trains should actually not be the primary focus of the US when it commes to public transport, city/suburban systems are more important.
Don’t get me wrong, the US absolutely needs high speed rail, but without a well functioning local public transport system at both ends you end up with something that conceptually is more like an airport than a european train station.
Without local public transport, travelers still need to go by car to and from the endpoints, just like a lot of airports, this means that stations will require a lot of expensive parking, that is essentially wasted space.
Now, the US will probably allways be car dependant to a higher degree than Europe, this is due to how cities have been built, unchecked urban sprawl with little mixed use zones with few central spots makes it hard to build good metro and bus lines, where do you put the stations, where will people connect?
I won’t pretend to have the answers, I absolutely don’t, but I know that regardless of how public transport is established in new and existing neighbourhoods there will be angry people, but lets just make sure that the happy people outnumber them
Right - public transit needs to be usable in the place you’re traveling to if you’re going to take a train. This is why a lot of people would rather drive from, say San Francisco to Los Angeles. Suppose you were to take a train instead. Then… great?! what would you do next? You wouldn’t have anywhere to go, so you’ll need a car anyway. You’d either have to rent one or just skip the train and do the drive instead.
Probably a lot easier and feasible in my opinion to build the local public transit first, and then focus on the regional/national transit system.
If you’re going from LA to SF you’re fine. You’d take the Coast Starlight to SJ, then you’d transfer to Cal Train, and that drops you off at the Transbay Terminal in SF which gives you easy access to BART or Muni and all of the streetcar and bus lines. Owning a car in SF is more trouble than it’s worth for a lot of people. I never owned one when I lived there.
Granted, SF is one of only a handful of US cities where this is true.
Heading south to LA would probably be a much bigger problem though.
Dude I’m traveling to Texas in a few months and I didn’t realize how close Dallas/Fort Worth, Houston, and Austin are. It’s like a triangle, 2.5 to 3.5 hours between either city. Waco and San Antonio sit on the line between Austin and DFW.
These cities are linked by a rather nice highway system from what I remember last time I was in TX, but to the best of my knowledge, there’s no high-speed rail, only rail that’s slower than driving most the time.
Why? Texas should be embarrassed. Especially with Houston being so close to Galveston, which is a pretty damn good port.
High speed trains for city to city transit wouldn’t allow for markets like this. You need suburb to city core transit for that…
Oh, wait:
This reminds me of that AskHistorian thread of someone asking where people parked their chariots when Roman citizens went to the coliseum.
Heh. Their palanquin or litter would drop them off and go sit in an alley or street somewhere, probably. Like how carriages in later centuries would.
Well?
Where did they?
Iirc, chariots where only used to transport people and goods between towns and cities, being pretty rare inside cities if not completely forbidden.
so… they park them at city limits? it’s a good question
Trick question. They didn’t, the chauffeur did it for them.
New Yorkers get it but that’s about it.
I think Chicago is the only other US city that comes close, their transit is fantastic!
And they’ve got Christkindlmarket.
DC’s light rail is pretty nice too. LA’s could be nice if there were more frequent trains, but that probably has more to do with how sprawled LA is.
I used the red line all the time when I lived in LA. It was crazy to me that so few people who lived there even knew it existed.
At the time, the other two lines were, if I remember correctly, the blue and green lines. Those were much more working class commute type lines that didn’t go anywhere particularly interesting, but the red line ran from downtown out through Hollywood, and then on to universal where I could enjoy some of the bars at City Walk without worrying about driving or parking.
Now I live maybe less than five miles from downtown Dallas and I never go there because there’s no train and the driving/parking situation is a nightmare.
Clarification: There are trains that go to downtown Dallas. Just not from my neighborhood.
I (US citizen living in Japan for most of a decade) took my wife (only in the US once as an elementary school student and only Honolulu) to DC for the first time a couple of months ago. I was pleasantly surprised. I had ridden DC’s subways once or twice on trips there. We were table to do everything we wanted on foot, by bus, and by train. Getting on the train from Dulles, though, we had some only-partly-clothed woman passed out with what I can only assume was a trail of partly-dried piss on the floor by her. Police took her off when we got into the city at some point, but it was a less-than-stellar start. That said, I’ve seen people puke and piss on trains in Tokyo as well.
San Francisco always gets left out of these as well, but transit there rocks
Portland is pretty decent too. Not as good as SF, but you can reasonably get around the entire area on public transportation.
SF is easily as well-deserved by public transit as Chicago. It’s the 2nd densest city in the US, behind NYC. Between Muni, the streetcars and busses and BART, there’s always an easy way to get anywhere in The City. You can even jump on a cable car if that’s your thing.
I knew what a flea market was long before I moved to NY.
They’re talking about not having to drive everywhere, not flea markets
Citation needed.
Reading comprehension needed
For what? I was just trying to explain the joke lol
Lol if you have to explain the joke there is no joke lol
If only you need the joke explained, you’ve doubled the number of jokes in the thread
Sometimes people have little difficulties understanding jokes and need a little help.
They have transit to back that up though. There are plenty of smallish towns and rural areas that don’t have any transit at all.
At the same time, those towns are hella compact, such that 90+% of residents can walk to pretty much any retailer or store or other resource within 15-20 minutes. Yes, some people (farmers) live outside of town and there are some American-style housing in clumps outside of the town, but everyone mostly lives in tight clusters.
And even the tiny towns well away from other larger towns have busses that move people between towns on a fairly regular If infrequent basis (15-20 minutes apart). Only the larger population centres can afford to have public transport that comes every 5 minutes or so.
You also have to understand that in North America, a “significant separation between towns” is something like 100+km. In Germany, that term qualifies with as little as a 10km distance. It’s rare to find any population centre that is more than 20km away from its nearest neighbour.
fairly regular If infrequent basis (15-20 minutes apart)
lol that’s the frequency that the busses and trains near me operate during peak commute times. I finally broke down and bought a car. I’m American if you couldn’t tell…
Oof, in my city there’s one route that’s 40 minutes, and the rest are an hour+
If I lived in a different spot or had kids or anything, it’d be impossible for me to take the bus. I don’t blame people who don’t use it. It’s mostly used by homeless people.
It’s getting better though, slowly but surely :)
At the same time, those towns are hella compact, such that 90+% of residents can walk to pretty much any retailer or store or other resource within 15-20 minutes.
- Pandemics are a thing
- Families wanting nature and places in their backyard that kids can play
I think 15 minute cities are great if you have everything to back it up. All of the grocery stores and mini-box stores left downtown Seattle because a lot are work from home now. If people can work and live anywhere they want, they want nature. You need to have transit for that.
Edit: I’m trying to understand the downvotes, is this not being taught in urban planning? Is it just developers wanting to rent their spaces because their leases are closing out? Or is it naive people wanting to force their ideas without realizing humans are going to make decisions in the process as well? Super interesting thread.
One of the mistakes for which j think you are down voted is thinking you can’t have nature nearby if you live in a more dense cluster. Quite the opposite is true. People living in apartments 4 or 5 high leaves a lot more open space available for parks, playgrounds, etc. Suburban sprawl looking for “wanting nature and places in their backyard that kids can play” is exactly what destroys this space in cities in the first place…
As an American, I worked in Tokyo for a while and I would 100% raise a family in any sized walkable town or city with mass transit. You could walk to several stores or restaurants, the train station, the river, or several parks within 10 minutes.
As an American, I worked in Tokyo for a while and I would 100% raise a family in any sized walkable town or city with mass transit.
They also have along with amazing transit, grocery stores within walking distance, like New York. Also, your preferences aren’t everyone’s preferences. Again, if you have the infrastructure to back it up, go for it. If you don’t, work towards this, but take into account all of the possible problems with it. No one was wishing they lived in the city during the beginning of the pandemic.
I think 15 minute cities are great if you have everything to back it up.
This is just a tautology
I think water is great if it has two hydrogens for each oxygen
Even if you have most things nearby for day-to-day life but still need to travel an hour for any of: school, work, daycare, groceries, or even common leisure or entertainment activities, “green spaces”… Then that ain’t a 15 minute city.
Additionally, transit is absolutely included in 15 minute city concept - whether it be pedestrian, biking, bus, train, mixed-mode trips, cars*… It’s a holistic concept so of course these are all under the umbrella.
* yes even cars can be included, but in order for the others to be successful they are general de-prioritized in this model.
Edit: I’ll also add that I see “15-minute city” is an aspirational goal, and anything that moves us closer towards it tends to be good for the people that live there - and even if not fully achieved in a particular place, this type of hand-wringing about specific aspects in order to disregard the whole concept seems disingenuous at best.
I think the downvotes are the blanket statement of “if people can work and live anywhere they want, they want nature”
I like nature just fine and have worked from home for most of the past ten years but you couldn’t get me to give up the city for the country and I’ve had the option for a long time. I moved from Atlanta to Seattle because i preferred the opposite of what you said people want.
Seattle has a shit ton of nature in the city though, and we’re also getting a decent transit. We have greenery crawling up the concrete everywhere.
Atlanta is called the city in the trees/forest, in comparison Seattle may as well be the concrete jungle
Let’s get something straight, I love the city. I love and live in Seattle and love it too, even with all of its quirks. I think a walkable city is great. It is not for everyone and people have to figure that out.
They have micro apartments that were a nightmare before the pandemic, it was the best that some could afford. Granted, there was a lot of rent price fixing going on as well, not sure if that’s being fixed or not. Would you want to raise your kids in a dorm room or a studio apartment?
If people can work and live anywhere they want, they want nature.
This is a huge generalization and you seem to imply that would mean populations spreading out into semi rural areas. Studies have shown people are happier with access to nature, but you seem to forget green spaces, parks and tree lined streets exist. I loved living in a walkable city and absolutely would again if I could afford it.
Studies have shown people are happier with access to nature, but you seem to forget green spaces, parks and tree lined streets exist. I loved living in a walkable city and absolutely would again if I could afford it.
I know parks exist, that doesn’t mean the city is right for everyone. I’m glad you would love a great walkable city, I think they’re great too. Do you think that people would enjoy raising a family in a studio apartment?
Families wanting nature and places in their backyard that kids can play
Prospect Park is often called Brooklyn’s back yard.
I think 15 minute cities are great if you have everything to back it up.
The fifteen minute city is the infrastructure.
Right, so let’s say we do it, we have 15 minute cities everywhere and I want to see my aunt in Arizona, but I live in Seattle. Now what? How do you feel about motorcycles, electric bikes and scooters? Let’s say that I hate Amazon and want to keep small businesses in business, we don’t have that type of small business in my 15 minute city, do I bike 3 hours to the next one? Are you going to remake the economy?
You guys have to be trolling me, right? This is my last comment because I suspect you guys are.
- I think 15 minute cities are great, people should accommodate the people that want them
- The 15 minute cities won’t solve the corporation problem of hogging all of the resources and it seems like a distraction from them being the problem.
- You need transit, not everyone is 18-24, naive, and healthy with no kids
Good luck!
we have 15 minute cities everywhere and I want to see my aunt in Arizona, but I live in Seattle. Now what?
Take a plane, a train, or an automobile!
How do you feel about motorcycles, electric bikes and scooters?
I’m fine with them. I’d prefer that they stayed off sidewalks, but that’s my only real thought on them.
Let’s say that I hate Amazon and want to keep small businesses in business, we don’t have that type of small business in my 15 minute city, do I bike 3 hours to the next one?
If you want to. I think a lot of the other commenters suggested using public transit. You could also drive. Maybe they do mail order?
You need transit, not everyone is 18-24, naive, and healthy with no kids
All of the comments I’ve read haven’t mentioned transit, or have been transit positive.
Only thing urban planners seem to understand is if you make driving more difficult somehow this magically makes mass transit better instead of people just refusing to go to that area. Also that poor people don’t have a right to park their car.
I live in France, about 30 minutes from a major city. There is transit, but it’s not good, and has very few stops near where I live. Grocery shopping has to be done by car or bike as there aren’t any shops in the village. European cities are extremely well served by transit, but outside the metropolitan areas, cars are still king.
It’s a really interesting thread. Cities are great, suburb & rural can be great and transit is great. 15 minute cities are great goals, but it’s not a one size fits all situation. I can’t figure out how they think these utopian 15 minute cities would work if they don’t have a working transit built in. It’s so weird, do they think handicapped people can bike and walk everywhere or don’t exist? Do they think parents love sending their kids down the block to play by themselves instead of the backyard? Their choices aren’t going to make sense for a ton of people. They’re either right out of school or trolling, I can’t tell which.
I can’t figure out how they think these utopian 15 minute cities would work if they don’t have a working transit built in. It’s so weird
Isn’t the assumption that the 15 minute city is a neighbourhood in a functional city? There should be transit.
It’s so weird, do they think handicapped people can bike and walk everywhere or don’t exist?
I lived in something like a fifteen minute neighbourhood. I saw people in wheelchairs around. They appeared to use the same amenities as everyone else.
Do they think parents love sending their kids down the block to play by themselves instead of the backyard?
Our kids preferred going to playgrounds because the toys and play structures were better. And they ran into kids they knew.
Their choices aren’t going to make sense for a ton of people.
I’m not sure what would be bad about a fifteen minute neighbourhood. It’s just a normal neighbourhood, with stores, schools, work, and civic infrastructure.
As far as I can tell, a fifteen minute neighbourhood only adds to what exists, rather than taking away.
There should be transit.
No, there are people in this thread saying that 15 minute cities are the transit. You’d think that would be the case.
As far as I can tell, a fifteen minute neighbourhood only adds to what exists, rather than taking away.
Look again at this thread, lol.
Neighborhoods that promote no cars would be great as long as they have the transit to back it up, imo as well.
Dig deeper and you’ll see the crazy.
Impossible. This thread has shown me that literally all of Europe has year round Christmas markets with form of mechanical transportation. An entire continent reduce to pre-horse travel. Enough with facts feelings are all that is real.
I enjoy when someone shows up to prove the meme true
That the US doesn’t have great transit? You’re totally correct. :)
That you can’t imagine how it possibly could.
You think the rest of the world just, I guess, found the natural transit in the ground? The rest of the world built public transit systems to satisfy the people. America did not, to satisfy the companies.
to pre-empt the standard responses:
“america is very big”, yes yes so is the rest of the world, we managed.
“America isn’t as dense”, yup the rest of the world has low densities, too. We still build infrastructure, though
“It’s very expensive and we already bought a car and made all these empty dead suburban environments, it would take people three hours by bus to get to a store”, yup America made its choices there, the rest of the world zones so that people live near the infrastructure they need and can get the things they need via transit.
You have a very rosy view of “the rest of the world.” The truth is that “the rest of the world” includes a vast array of different urban environments, some of which are very well-planned and executed, and others of which are, not so much, shall we say. This binary between the US and “the rest of the world” is bullshit and is intellectually lazy. I can only think that you have no formal education in urban studies.
I can’t believe you managed to fit all those words in their mouth. That’s kinda impressive. Like word tetris.
they dont park cars. They crush them and build new ones when they want to go somewhere
There was an old cartoon where they did this. I can’t find it anymore
Well this guy’s apparently never been to Germany, they do in fact have a lot of parking garages and street parking in cities. Is straight up lying how you’re going to convince people to build public transit?
There is no parking area just for the christmas market though, which is what the american assumed
They probably assumed this is like a theme park or something and not an actual city that people actually live in year round. Cities having nice, people friendly places away from cars? Who’s ever heard of that?
Is that Munich? I’m getting strong Viktualienmarkt vibes.
I would say it’s Dresden.
Definitetly it’s the Altmarkt
Completely off topic, but can anyone pinpoint this Christmas market? Looks hella cozy, but I don’t recognize the buildings around it.
I’d say that’s the Striezelmarkt in Dresden (Germany’s oldest Christmas market over 580 years old) but the big ones kinda all look like that.
By the way that’s what they have to say about the posts topic on their website: “best accessibility: local public transport, on foot and by bike”
Image Transcription: Twitter Post
gaut, @0xgaut
the American mind cannot comprehend this
[A screenshot of a Facebook post with reply, transcribed below]
It’s beginning to look a lot like Christmas
Christmas market in Germany 🇩🇪
I want to know how they deal with parking? They probably have huge parking garages 🤷♀️
Image Transcription: Twitter Post
That’s enough information, thanks.
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We have a bunch of Christmas markets in the US. They get pretty packed. There are parking garages near them since their downtown in major cities (DC, Baltimore, Philly).
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Garages are better than lots. Especially garages under buildings. No Americans have been tricked into anything. None of us have a say in how our cities were designed. That was mostly auto makers at the turn of the century.
Enough with the facts my feelings are all that is real
Where are your facts? Because it’s awfully hilarious you say that feelings are all that is real, when really feelings are all that is real to you.
“It feels like we have parking so this is fine”.
Here are some actual facts: Europe has larger stadiums that hold more people and don’t have giant parking lots 12x the size of the area they serve.
Parking lots are stupid, and big parking lot cities in the US are stupid. Enough with your feelings
We have a pretty sweet stadium in downtown Portland. It only holds like 22k give or take, but there’s no parking lots and light rail service is basically across the street, so we get a real old-world vibe there. Plus the Timbers Army is probably the biggest and most well-organized supporters group in anglophone North America. A Timbers match is definitely worth the price of admission if you ever get a chance to visit. Preferably on a rainy weeknight if you want the real Pacific Northwest experience.
Christmas markets in the US are barely more than a themed Farmer’s market.
How are European ones different?
For one, Christmas markets in countries that traditionally do them are significantly larger. The largest ones in the US would be a mid size one in Berlin.
Tbf Berlin is likely to be the largest one, right?
There are like 50 in Berlin alone.
Oh no the horror! I won’t be able to get vegetables that look funny for more money than a supermarket.
Wasn’t aware that flea markets were not a thing anymore.
they’re referring to USA’s obsession with cars and parking lots, not the concept of markets
Are they that crowded where you are? And outside?
Yes. Not my thing but other people seem to enjoy shopping inefficiently. Think it is like when I give my guinea pigs a box to “explore” or jiggle keys infront of a baby.
Let me know if you have any further questions about flea markets.
If only the EU understood just how sparse the US is geographically compared to the EU they may understand why cars are such a necessity.
We are talking about walking around a city lol, not a country
TIL the US doesn’t have cities
People in the US have to travel 500km on their car every day just to go shopping, sadly nobody has figured out a way to build shops closer to the population or any sort of sharable transport.
Nope not a one. I saw a picture of some primitive form of shopping in Germany and this the US has no cities whatsoever.
Now if only there was a long range form of transportation that could move a lot of people (or goods) from one city to another. 🤔 Maybe something that was set up over 150 years ago, lets say May 10, 1869.
We can only dream, I guess. 🤷♂️
Lmao. No the US like to kill all competition and forcing you to take your car 30 minutes to go to walmart. It’s often illegal in a lot of places to have a shop on the ground floor of a residential building. This is by design.
American suburbs are cancer. See also “the missing middle”.
The problem is not that the US is sparse, is that cities are. You are probably misunderstanding the problem, and if not, you are not explaining correctly. Check out The Dumbest Excuse for Bad Cities from Not Just Bikes for a breakdown of the issue.
No one is blaming you individually, or even the US citizens individually. The problems are multiple for sure, but you won’t start to fix it unless you understand the issue properly. Maybe it’s not your case, but many US citizens are surely not seeing the point at all.
lol
