Misleading title - the problem is not “crypto”, it’s pretty much all Bitcoin and the people against the change in the consensus mechanism. Out of the top 10 9 coins in market cap, Bitcoin is the only one using proof of work, which demands such high energy requirements.
>it’s been in steady decline since the meme blew up.
it got a pretty big bump from elon a couple years back, but dogecoin is nearly perfect money. it isn’t deflationary, it’s cheap to transact, and the on-ramps are ubiquitous.
the entire Bitcoin block chain could be run on the phone I’m using to write this. there is nothing inherent to the protocol that dictates such massive power use.
and dogecoin merge mines with all the other script coins so how can you even calculate its independent usage?
there is nothing inherent to the protocol that dictates such massive power use.
Yes there is, massive power use is the entire point of proof-of-work. If Bitcoin blocks could be produced without massive power use then the blockchain’s system of validation would fail and 51% attacks would be trivial.
the hash rate for the first blocks was achievable with a pentium 3. the protocol functioned then. there is nothing inherent to the protocol that dictates more hashpower is used. a 51% attack is the protocol functioning properly.
That’s because there were just a handful of people mining the first blocks and there was no demand, so the price was basically zero.
The protocol is meant to promote decentralization, so I have no idea how a 51% attack would be an example of the protocol functioning properly. A 51% attack is a demonstration that the protocol is controlled by a single entity.
there is every reason to not believe them. they clearly have a motivation to paint power consumption as worse than is true, and the complexity of extracting the use of dogecoin mining from the rest of the mergedmine is, personally, unfathomable. maybe i’m dumb and there is a simple calculation that can be done, but without evidence of their methodology, i’m not going to believe them, and no one should.
and who’s proposing that? I picked the top in market cap to illustrate what most relevant coins are doing because most of them are irrelevant shitcoins.
Isn’t it strange no one gave a shit about this a year and a half ago when the price was lower? It appears everyone’s concern for the environment and energy consumption only increases when the price goes up. Interesting correlation or may be causation.
I’ve been keeping a close eye on the news about crypto and there has been virtually no stories about any crypto for the last 2 years, prior to that when the price was high there were a lot of stories about it which is my point. They only started to come back into circulation about 6 months ago. If you remember otherwise you are wrong.
Proof of stake work is one of the reasons why bitcoin is so valuable in the first place. I’ve seen estimates that the electricity costs combined with the equipment cost makes each bitcoin approximately $20k to mine. Not a bad thing. Anyways, energy is somewhat artificially scarce- can always just pump up more oil out of the ground.
No it’s not? The fact that the energy supply can adjust to demand is a good thing rather than a problem. At least in the US. Looked into it, and it seems that there’s an estimated to be over 300 billion barrels of recoverable oil that is mostly economically viable. Compare that to a current annual consumption of 7 billion barrels a year. There’s enough to maintain current consumption for another 40 years. That is most of my remaining lifetime from domestic production alone.
You really only have to seriously worry if you’re a parent responsible for new people. Sound like you? It doesn’t sound like me.
Here’s something I saved from Reddit a while back; it’s a bit cynical, but worth keeping in mind nonetheless.
It’s been a strange realization to slowly understand that a lot of our parents and grandparents hate us. They don’t hate us by name, mind you. The tell us they love us and they’re even empathetic to us to a degree. But if you removed the familial relationship–if you told your parents or grandparents your exact life story but with a different name and from a different family, they’d hate that person before you got through the first sentence. They’d break out all the cliches–bootstraps, lazy millennial, entitled, all the classics. Their empathy and love is purely genealogical, an expectation placed upon them under threat of social stigmas against being a “bad parent,” which they may well abandon too if that particular tradition is broken by some political figure famous enough and depraved enough to normalize it.
Collectively, the young who will outlive you are but labor and taxpayers. Caring about anyone else’s lifetime past your death largely doesn’t exist past kin and close friends.
You mean proof of work? And I disagree, Ethereum moved from PoW to PoS and gained market cap since then. The high costs are just a consequence of the consensus mechanism in use.
It’s more that it was originally a theoretical white paper meant to present a potential solution for a very specific problem space. Energy use wasn’t a consideration in the design, because that wasn’t part of what it was meant to address. Likewise, anonymity in the sense of hiding transactions wasn’t part of the design either, besides avoiding centralized banking’s requirement that every “wallet” is associated with a government ID.
It was a fun toy meant as a proof of concept solution to centralized banking.
Eventually market speculators saw what the nerds were getting up to, got some ideas, and everything freaking exploded. It wasn’t meant to drive speculative markets.
Misleading title - the problem is not “crypto”, it’s pretty much all Bitcoin and the people against the change in the consensus mechanism. Out of the top
109 coins in market cap, Bitcoin is the only one using proof of work, which demands such high energy requirements.dogecoin is top10
ah yes the 10th place - still, Doge is estimated to use ~1% of the energy Bitcoin uses and it’s been in steady decline since the meme blew up.
>it’s been in steady decline since the meme blew up.
it got a pretty big bump from elon a couple years back, but dogecoin is nearly perfect money. it isn’t deflationary, it’s cheap to transact, and the on-ramps are ubiquitous.
the entire Bitcoin block chain could be run on the phone I’m using to write this. there is nothing inherent to the protocol that dictates such massive power use.
and dogecoin merge mines with all the other script coins so how can you even calculate its independent usage?
Yes there is, massive power use is the entire point of proof-of-work. If Bitcoin blocks could be produced without massive power use then the blockchain’s system of validation would fail and 51% attacks would be trivial.
the hash rate for the first blocks was achievable with a pentium 3. the protocol functioned then. there is nothing inherent to the protocol that dictates more hashpower is used. a 51% attack is the protocol functioning properly.
That’s because there were just a handful of people mining the first blocks and there was no demand, so the price was basically zero.
The protocol is meant to promote decentralization, so I have no idea how a 51% attack would be an example of the protocol functioning properly. A 51% attack is a demonstration that the protocol is controlled by a single entity.
a 51% attack means that 51% of the hashpower has agreed on a certain chain. this happens every 10 minutes.
That’s not an “attack.”
idk their methodology - source
if they don’t explain their methodology, there is no reason to believe they got it right
then there’s no reason to believe they got it wrong.
also they’re vague estimates, even bitcoin has a huge margin for error.
there is every reason to not believe them. they clearly have a motivation to paint power consumption as worse than is true, and the complexity of extracting the use of dogecoin mining from the rest of the mergedmine is, personally, unfathomable. maybe i’m dumb and there is a simple calculation that can be done, but without evidence of their methodology, i’m not going to believe them, and no one should.
what’s the problem of estimating based on mined blocks and difficulty?
two of the top 10 by market cap ar stable coins.
what’s your point?
that market cap is a dumb metric to use to dictate protocol specifications
wtf are you even talking about? What protocol specs? Who’s dictating what?
the specifications of the bitcoin protocol require proof of work. using the market cap to dictate what the protocol specification should be is absurd.
and who’s proposing that? I picked the top in market cap to illustrate what most relevant coins are doing because most of them are irrelevant shitcoins.
seems like you undrestand that market cap is irrelevant to the protocol design.
Want to suggest a better one?
uh… adoption, stability, code commits, forks…
Isn’t it strange no one gave a shit about this a year and a half ago when the price was lower? It appears everyone’s concern for the environment and energy consumption only increases when the price goes up. Interesting correlation or may be causation.
Everyone already gave a shit about this a long time ago. It’s also one of the reasons Ethereum switched from proof of work to proof of stake.
Yes but only when the price was high did anyone care and ethereum switch. Barely a peep for the last 2 and a half years
I’ve been hearing about the stupid amount of energy usage for years and years. You just created a straw man that isn’t based on reality.
I’ve been keeping a close eye on the news about crypto and there has been virtually no stories about any crypto for the last 2 years, prior to that when the price was high there were a lot of stories about it which is my point. They only started to come back into circulation about 6 months ago. If you remember otherwise you are wrong.
Proof of
stakework is one of the reasons why bitcoin is so valuable in the first place. I’ve seen estimates that the electricity costs combined with the equipment cost makes each bitcoin approximately $20k to mine. Not a bad thing. Anyways, energy is somewhat artificially scarce- can always just pump up more oil out of the ground.No, this is actually exactly the fucking problem
No it’s not? The fact that the energy supply can adjust to demand is a good thing rather than a problem. At least in the US. Looked into it, and it seems that there’s an estimated to be over 300 billion barrels of recoverable oil that is mostly economically viable. Compare that to a current annual consumption of 7 billion barrels a year. There’s enough to maintain current consumption for another 40 years. That is most of my remaining lifetime from domestic production alone.
I have some bad news for you about the environmental effects of burning lots of oil
They’re a crypto bro. They probably think they’ll live on a swimming libertarian island by then.
As long as there’s enough for your remaining lifetime that’s fine. We don’t have to worry about anyone else’s lifetime after that.
You really only have to seriously worry if you’re a parent responsible for new people. Sound like you? It doesn’t sound like me.
Here’s something I saved from Reddit a while back; it’s a bit cynical, but worth keeping in mind nonetheless.
Collectively, the young who will outlive you are but labor and taxpayers. Caring about anyone else’s lifetime past your death largely doesn’t exist past kin and close friends.
I think you’re telling on yourself
Not really. You still don’t know much.
Anyways, having the wrong opinion and looking stupid by “telling on myself” here barely affects me at all.
You mean proof of work? And I disagree, Ethereum moved from PoW to PoS and gained market cap since then. The high costs are just a consequence of the consensus mechanism in use.
bitcoin has got to be invented by an alien or something so that we would terraform for them…
Probably just a fool thinking free fusion energy was just around the corner
It’s more that it was originally a theoretical white paper meant to present a potential solution for a very specific problem space. Energy use wasn’t a consideration in the design, because that wasn’t part of what it was meant to address. Likewise, anonymity in the sense of hiding transactions wasn’t part of the design either, besides avoiding centralized banking’s requirement that every “wallet” is associated with a government ID.
It was a fun toy meant as a proof of concept solution to centralized banking.
Eventually market speculators saw what the nerds were getting up to, got some ideas, and everything freaking exploded. It wasn’t meant to drive speculative markets.