- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
Experts alerted motor trade to security risks of ‘smart key’ systems which have now fuelled highest level of car thefts for a decade.
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It’s so difficult to use a regular key though.
I’ve had to cancel journeys before because I get in the car and I just cannot work out how to turn it on 😞
I finally did but…gawd turning a key is so much work!
We need a turnkey solution for this, stat!
They struck gold in the most horrible way possible: People dependent on their cars + their car keeps getting stolen = infinite money printing machine
I hear americans love big cars. Here is big car for them to buy:
Dude youre being a condescending ass, plenty of us wish we had the ability to use public transit but it is either wholly insufficient or non existant in many places.
Just using myself as an example, say I want to go to taco bell I have 2 options drive for 15 minutes at most or walk for over 2 hours because my city is built on a fucking slope. Also the city has no infra city public transit cause we’re too small, also most of the city is actually pretty walkable if you live towards the center of the East West axis which I do not.
I find it hard to believe cities are too small for public transit and too big to walk at the same time. I find it easier to believe people are just too lazy for a 30 min walk.
It wouldnt be too big for wlakability if it wasnt on aa fucking slope, 30 minute walk downhill will translate into an hour minimum walk up hill.
Have ya tried a bike/ebike? Till I was 26 all I ever used was a bike. Can easily do 20km/hr and bypass traffic. Used to work 12 hr shifts and bike to and from work (12km) and where I am there are hills in both directions
Shit I got an e bike now that does 50kph/32mph and I can get to work (8km) in less than 15 min
I used to bike all around town in highschool and middleschool, but the problem is that they only shave off so much time relatively speaking. Also once again I must note I live in the worst part of town for walking or biking anywhere, bout 30 minutes to walk anywhere bout an hour and a half minimum to walk back home.
fuckcars folks trying not to be the most annoying person in the room for one second challenge (instant fail)
Look, I love good public transportation infrastructure as much as you. I always try to tell other people and especially the government how much my city urgently needs to upgrade its trains, BRTs, sidewalks, etc (thankfully though there’s now multiple efforts on building MRT & LRT).
But, that doesn’t mean cars are the worst invention in the history of man–you folks always say that and it’s infuriating to me, it’s such a narrow-minded way of seeing the world.
Take Japan for example, the train infrastructure is pretty much the best. I know that cuz I’ve been there, trust me, I can talk about this for hours. So good that, while we lived there, we didn’t feel the need to buy a car. Their bus is pretty good too. Sidewalks, bike lanes, accessibility, etc have been taken into account when they were building their city.
But when you live in rural parts of Japan, it’s inevitable–you need cars. There isn’t just enough demand for public transportation. Sometimes there’s a train going through but the frequency is low, and most of the time it’s only single-track. Or sometimes there are buses going through, but infrequently.
And it’s fine. The city is small, and there aren’t enough car users to make bad traffic congestion.
Different story for big city though. I always thought that living in a big city is a form of compromise: you have a limited space of land to use, but you need to use that land for millions of people. If the city only relies on cars, it’s going to be so inefficient. Too much traffic congestion, bad pollution. That’s why good cities build mass transportation, or in your case, buses.
And the best cities build extremely good mass transportation so good that people doesn’t feel the need of buying cars. Of course cars still exist, like the city I lived back in when I was in Japan. Or rural parts of Japan. Or perhaps people that commute between them. But there are options: cars, bikes, buses, trains, etc.
Here’s my point: the availability of options are the best. It’s okay if you want to ride cars, bike, bus, or trains.
Cause you’ll need cars at some point in your life. And it’s alright.
Looks like ya hit a sore spot with some millimeter peters
Wut?
Small dick people downvoting
Ah
I have a key fob faraday cage/pouch keychain to prevent people from being able to dupe my key fob’s signal.
Seems like keyfobs need an on/off switch for signal broadcasting.
Honestly this is a great idea. You could likely even make one yourself with a couple wires, a switch and a piece of tape.
Okay but did the stockholders profit? Yes? Goddamn right they did.
Seems to be specifically about these you unlock from your phone and then press a button to start
A device disguised as a games console - known as an “emulator” - is being exploited by thieves to steal vehicles within 20 seconds by mimicking the electronic key.
Don’t they use rolling codes? So I suppose this emulator is some malware you install on your phone
Could be the Flipper Zero that Canada just banned, due to it’s use in car thefts.
The flipper zero can’t get around rolling codes, unless it’s a very specific situation. Car thiefs aren’t using them.
The OP’s quote leaves out the “It is being targeted at Hyundai and Kia models.” part. From what I can find those brands are (were?) susceptible to rollback where sending an old code reactivates codes that came after it
https://www.reddit.com/r/flipperzero/comments/z2fq6h/broken_rolling_code_system_old_sent_signal/
Don’t they use rolling codes? So I suppose this emulator is some malware you install on your phone
I would hope that they would use rolling codes, but I would also not be all that surprised if they did not. Car manufacturers have cheaped out for less.
The emulator part seems like it’s confusing a few different things together. Although I’m a little suspect of that, since someone holding up a games console to a car or house is suspicious anyway.
It could also be described as an emulator (emulating the key), and the crossover with game emulators might be causing some confusion?
A dedicated device might make sense there, if it has better antennas, or better capabilities than would be available with a basic phone, in addition to being less technical than having to install an app and fiddle about with all of that.
Y’all ready for the same article to come out about various smart home devices?
Already has a few dozen times. All the more reason to self-host. Corporations can’t be trusted to secure your data.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
A device disguised as a games console - known as an “emulator” - is being exploited by thieves to steal vehicles within 20 seconds by mimicking the electronic key.
“Smart” equipment is on sale online for up to £5,000, allowing thieves to hack into a vehicle’s computer system and programme a new key.
Jaguar Land Rover announced a £10m investment last November to upgrade security for commonly stolen models for cars built between 2018 and 2022.
The Observer investigation reveals other vehicles with similar security loopholes, with Hyundai confirming this weekend it is working “as a priority” to prevent an attack on its cars by criminals “using devices to illegally override smart key locking systems”.
An article by Stephen Mason, a barrister specialising in electronic evidence and communication interception, in Computer Law and Security Review in April 2012 warned keyless systems could be “successfully undermined” and unless manufacturers improve the design cars would be stolen without forced entry.
Mike Hawes, SMMT Chief Executive, said: “Car makers continuously introduce new technology to stay one step ahead of criminals.
The original article contains 622 words, the summary contains 177 words. Saved 72%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
These keyless ignition cars should never have been legal and the manufacturers should be on the hook for recalling and fixing them.
I’ve been saying that since they were first released.
That flipper zero (not disguising a car theft tool as a game device btw) can be used to attack said cars is irrelevant, because you could trivially order the parts to make your own.
I hate that the insurance lobby is winning out on security by obscurity via lobbying governments and putting out scary statements, instead of hiking the rates for Kia’s and other trivial to steal cars. The insurers are having their cake and eating it too by wanting to charge money but lacking the wherewithal to actually charge rates commensurate with risk.
Where I live, insurance companies have been charging higher rates on most Kia models specifically because of how targeted they’ve become by thieves.
Aren’t all cars within the past decades using rolling keys?
This article does not do a good job of explaining what the attack vectors are.
Damn wtf. I think I learned of this and forgot
It’s near impossible to clone the signal from newer rolling codes, you need to trigger the key fob with out the signal reaching the car and then recorded with the flipper zero, then played back to the car. It takes a lot of coordination using the key fob. Here are some videos of it.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/HwdoHMVKTpU?si=BZpgfJRsOjquIqL1
https://piped.video/5CsD8I396wo?si=5Mkc6EFUH2HZG9vo
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
These are different attack vectors.
The classic one was listening to a key, then impersonating it later.
Rolling keys fixed that.For keyless, the usual attack is working as a relay.
Victim is 30m from their car, too far for keyless.
Attacker stands between the car and the victim with a transceiver that links the car and the key together, despite the distance, and opens it.
It didn’t need to be warned anyway. it knew. they always only ever lie.
I mean sure… but using a key to enter isnt really any safer? Like lock picks and jimmys and air bags have been defeating physical locks for even longer? Hell, a brick through a window gets you in faster than anything.
Riiight. Go ahead and apply that logic the next time you want to get in your house. Or brick your way into your car since it’s easier. Hopefully nobody spots you and calls the cops! You’re definitely not being a dickhead just by making that argument either, don’t let anybody tell you that. Those words needed to be said, it was important! And anyway the rest of us are so stupid we probably think we actually need keys.
Convenience is usually at odds with security.
That said, keyless access is amazing. Not having to dig out the car key is just so comfortable.
My favorite keyless car:
I wish one of them went from my home to my place of employment or my places of entertainment, much less at a time that’s reasonable
The bus trip home from the nearest transit route can take up to half an hour for me due to how often it comes and its path. The drive from the transit stop is 3 minutes.
Not that it matters, I still wouldn’t be able to get to the nearest grocery store on the bus, inexplicably none of them go there. These systems need work.
Literally nothing is secure.
Nothing wireless is secure, especially when dealing with end user electronics.
The only possible exception is WiFi and commercial wifi services like 4G/5G… In the case of WiFi, it really depends on the configuration. A local ISP was, by default, programming their combination router modems for WEP security for years after it was known to be insecure, and for years after tools to obtain the security key for WEP were commonly available. However, WPA2 and now WPA3 is used by corporations to secure their wireless traffic, and those technologies have been made available to the public on almost all consumer WiFi products made in the last few years, though, some may need to be updated to show the option for it. As far as I know, as of now, WPA3 has no known vulnerabilities that will allow a hacker to penetrate into the subject network. The weakest part of the system is people using poor passwords for their wifi, which can be easily guessed, which is not a fault of the technology itself.
IMO, the best, most shining example of well implemented security is PKI, which is used in HTTPS/TLS. A high security asymmetric key is used to generate a short-term use symmetrical key to secure the communication. It becomes basically pointless to try to break the encryption at that point.
But this isn’t the issue in the OP. The problem is: where does everyone keep their keys? If you said “at the front door” you’d be right. In most cases, keys are at, or very near the front door. Where are most people’s driveways? At the front of their house, next to the front door. There’s usually enough distance to keep the fob from being detected by the car and unlocking it for anyone who walks up, but with a small amount of tech, attackers can pull the signal through your front door and relay it to the car. The process is actually kind of trivial. This is known very aptly as a relay attack. One attacker with a high gain antenna loop, places that loop on or near your front door, while their partner has another device which is relaying the signals from the high gain antenna to the car. This makes the car think the key fob is nearby, and it unlocks the doors, and the vehicle can be started.
Once started, the vehicle will not automatically power off if the fob goes out of range, since that would create an unpredictable safety hazard. At this point the attackers only job is to get the vehicle somewhere that they can work on it for an unlimited amount of time, and program new fobs for it (which can be done with diagnostic tools).
The best way to prevent this is simply not to keep your keys in range of your front door, nullifying the attack. Otherwise, buy an RF blocking key box to put them in at the front door. Something that automatically closes would be beneficial here; something with a Faraday style mesh, or lead (embedded in the walls of the box) would be best IMO. Keep any spare keys in a similar lock box elsewhere in the home.
My family has our keys, at least 10 feet away from the door for storage, in our kitchen. It’s a short walk from the door down a tiled hallway, which makes for easy cleanup if someone walks over to get their keys from that location with muddy/wet boots or something.
Relay attacks are very common and easy to execute with a high degree of success. To their credit, manufacturers have done their diligence in implementing anti-replay attacks (where an attacker well record the signal to unlock/start a vehicle, then replay it later for access), but the relay issue is harder to account for. From the perspective of the car, or simply looks like you started the car, dropped your fob on the ground and drove away. This is a legitimate scenario, and one that is entirely plausible for an end user to create unintentionally.
Well that’s why i don’t like keyless vehicles, it’s easy to stole it with some wireless signal emulator
In the end the principle is same like wireless garage door opener, some thieves can hijack it very easily like no effortDo you not know what rolling codes are?
I have a question. What do you think a rolling code style security system does if the thief is amplifying your key fobs signal by standing in your driveway at 3 am and then transmitting it to your door lock? Because we’re talking about keyless entry where you don’t have to push any buttons on the key fob it just has to be within three feet of the vehicle. They are literally using your key to unlock your door. The key is always transmitting. The vehicle is always receiving. At the point where they have access to the interior of the vehicle they can just pull the fuses for the horn and lights and then pop the transmission shifter cable off the transmission control lever and manually put the car in neutral. This attack takes maybe ten minutes. At that point they can literally just roll the car onto a flatbed and drive away. The flipper zero costs $169 USD. But you can make one from parts for much less. A GPS blocking tool costs around $15. A signal repeater isn’t expensive either. Keyless entry on the whole is broken.
You may stop joyriders and petty thieves. But you won’t stop anyone looking to steal a car who has the know how and who is looking to sell your car for parts. The fact is, a lot of premium cars are vulnerable to attacks like this.
And before you even start about what I know about it, literally I’m an avionics tech. Rolling codes and frequency hopping is how we keep unfriendly forces from listening in on comms. Electronic attack and defence is literally what I did in the Navy for twelve years.
Rolling codes are a good security feature. But they do nothing to stop the attack that other articles on this subject better explain.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cars-hacked-stolen-keyless-vehicle-thefts/
Did you read OPs article or the ones you linked?
I went to the ARS one and it’s talking about CAN hacking which requires a physical connection…
It’s a great article, but if it has anything to do with this conversation and if anything backs me up. It’s about all the work thieves are going thru because rolling keys beats emulators.
C’mon man, even if you know what you’re talking about about (doesn’t seem to be the case) you still gotta read your own articles.
Isn’t that what the Flipper Zero is for ;-) Kia notwithstanding it’s not that easy. But the relay attacks have been around since at least 2018 and I suspect years longer.
For garage doors… Yeah, it’s been a thing
Because you can sit something there, monitor the rolling codes, then inject so it has a real one.
For a car, you have to follow them around while they lock/unlock repeatedly. And that’s only if people are using the button and not proximity. If they’re just using proximity, you’re going to have to be standing right next to them.
I think most of the wireless attacks aren’t trying to be so sophisticated. They target cars parked at home and use a relay attack that uses a repeater antenna to rebroadcast the signal from the car to the fob inside and vice versa, tricking the car into thinking the fob is nearby. Canada has seen a large spike in this kind of attack. Faraday pouches that you put the fob inside of at home mitigates the attack.
So does not leaving your keys by the front door… not that I follow my own advice :-)
Yeah. Shockingly people store things where it is convenient to have them. :) I’m glad I didn’t have a keyless system to with about.
I’m just banking on my car being the least fancy in my complex ;-)
Keyless entry sounds stupid and I’ve totally mocked people for being “to lazy to turn a key.” But pushbutton start makes my slow little Subaru feel like a race car :-)
Relay attacks don’t need the key to be in close proximity, they can be read from almost anywhere in the house if they aren’t in a faraday pouch or microwave. Have you seen the size of the antennas these attacks use?
Keyed vehicles are stolen just as easily.
Aren’t most keyless cars also keyed? It seems to me that extending the signal of a wireless fob is just easier and quicker.
…and keyful ones aren’t?
To be fair, I think we ignore the security of physical locks. Atleast one must get physical access to the lock in order to pick it.
Or even password books. Atleast someone has to get physical access to said book, which requires knowing it exists in the first place.
Does that make them better? No, not imo, but it is an aspect of these things that often gets overlooked
This is lockpickinglawyer and today I’m going to show you picking 100 locks in 100 seconds
This is the LockpickingLawyer and today I’ll show you just how easily I can pick the door to the bunker you’re hiding in. And there we have it.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
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I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
No shit.
I mean not to side with the car industry, and not to dog on non-tech folks, but if you bought a push to start engine that doesn’t require a key…
…
Like how do you think it works?! You couldn’t have thought it was very different from your TV remote, and everyone knows universal remotes exist. In glad there’s so much talk about moving away from passwords and over to physical security keys for computers.
Like how do you think it works?!
Rolling codes…
This article is stupid, the reason Kias and Hyundai are being stolen, is they lack an immobilizer.
So you break the window, crack open the steering column, and the part you turn conveniently is the same size as a USB plugin.
It’s acting like people are hijacking codes, because the author has no idea what they’re talking about about.
I’m not sure about what the article is referencing, which is probably a little more exotic, but relay attacks are very common against keyless cars. Keyless cars are constantly pinging for their matching fob. A relay attack just involves a repeater antenna held outside the car that repeats the signal between the car and the fob inside the house. Since many people leave the fob near the front of the house, it works and allows thieves to enter and start the car. Canada has has a big problem with car thieves using relay attacks to then drive cars into shipping containers and then sell them overseas.
Maybe you should read the article?
If you did, you’d probably be able to see the author has no idea what’s going on.
Like, the international crime ring that you’re talking about that gets cars halfway around the globe in a few weeks?
That happens, but it’s not why so many Kias and Hyundai are being stolen thousands of miles from a coast
I did read the article. I’m unfamiliar with the “hacking” tools or methods they mention given they use terms like emulator. I was simply sharing one wireless attack that is common in certain areas and why.
Don you have a good article discussing how this communication from car to key fob works?
Every fob like this that I’ve seen isn’t effective unless the key is close to the car (inches), because it uses a no-power system in the key fob, similar to a card reader (so no battery required in the fob to unlock car and start engine, once in close proximity). I’ve tested this on a few cars by removing the battery in the key fob.
Other functions (door locks, remote start etc), seem to be provided by conventional key fob electronics.
I’m sure there are several different ways this is accomplished, so any insight would be useful.
Thanks!
You managed to pack an impressive amount of ignorance into this one comment.
Show me a car today without keyless.
They’ve all been going that way for years. Last car I bought (two years ago, and it was a 2016), I couldn’t find any equivalent vehicle using a key.
And no, I’m not buying some junk just because it uses a key. I buy cars that I know I can keep running forever, and in that category they’re all keyless today.
