• Astongt615@lemmy.one
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    5 months ago

    Ford and Hyundai have tried to bring service to that market with the Maverick and Santa Cruz, respectively. My folks have one and love it, but I’ve found most people still complain because they “don’t need that big if a truck” but then you mention towing/hauling capacity and they say “well why can’t it just tow something small like an F150 does? I’m not trying to get a dually but if I didn’t want to do X then I’d just get a car!” I suspect most people’s “truck needs” would be accommodated but fomo and marketing leads buyers astray even when they already know what they want. Or they’re fickle and just need something to complain about.

    • HiddenLychee@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      What do you find people want to tow? I’m often at a loss when people bring this up because I’ve never once had a moment in my life where I was disappointed by the lack of towing capacity of my small car

        • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          What the heck do you need to tow for camping if you have a pickup truck? I can see boats, but boat people buy the towing capacity they need. Not the size of truck.

          • John_McMurray@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            Is legal here to tow two trailers if the first is 5th wheel. You can bumper hitch a boat behind your camper. This take a fairly serious truck, and is why I have a 5th wheel trailer that’s only 19 feet.

      • barsoap@lemm.ee
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        5 months ago

        Note that Americans basically all drive automatic transmissions, those have a thing called a torque converter. Unless that part is actively cooled it’s going to overheat when asked to do high-torque stuff over prolonged durations and as that active cooling needs space and weight it generally only comes with truck-sized vehicles.

        In short: The reason Americans don’t haul caravans and horses and boats with cars is because they can’t drive stick.

        • dual_sport_dork 🐧🗡️@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          ?

          Every automatic transmission car sold since the 1970’s and probably earlier has had a transmission cooler, right there alongside or in front of the radiator.

          • interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
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            5 months ago

            Also all of them have locking torque converters so there is no energy loss at constant speed. Also also, unless going upward at an incline. Most of the power requirements come from aerodynamic drag, not rolling friction of the trailer.

            • barsoap@lemm.ee
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              5 months ago

              You can’t lock the converter when accelerating because that’s not a constant speed you’ll stall the motor under the torque load, and to accelerate you need to overcome momentum. Neither drag nor rolling friction are anywhere close to high torque.

              And I have no idea what the previous poster meant with a transmission cooler, I guess it’s a different thing because a torque converter very much is not a transmission, if you want to compare it to anything then to a clutch. In any case I’ve got that explanation from an actual American actual car mechanic and random lemmings aren’t going to change my mind especially while making no mechanical sense.

              • AlotOfReading@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                A torque converter is part of the whole transmission system even if it’s a separate housing. When you buy a new transmission, it comes with a torque converter.

                Torque converters also create the majority of heat in automatic transmissions and are why automatic transmissions get coolers in the first place. How many manuals have you seen with transmission coolers?

                • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                  5 months ago

                  You’re right, granted, it’s probably just a bad name.

                  Then, though, are those cooling systems systems you find in small cars sufficient to cool the thing under sustained high torque loads? Like stop and go city traffic on flat terrain with 2.5t of fully-packed caravan behind it? How much space and weight does it take to beef them up to be able to deliver the same performance of a manual? Is it still sufficient to hook the thing up to the engine cooler, how much more radiator area do you need? Does that even fit a car? Is that why SUVs are designed to hide small kids in front of them? (ok I’ll stop now).

                  • boonhet@lemm.ee
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                    5 months ago

                    Stop and go city traffic isn’t all that sustained, because of the stop part.

                    None of my cars so far have had any issues towing ~2 tons, I’m not sure why 2.5 would be that much worse.

                    Of course, they’ve each had 400 newton-meters of torque out of their dinky little diesel engines.

              • dual_sport_dork 🐧🗡️@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                Wow. The remaining 7,950,999,999 people on this planet now have something to be thankful for, because none of them are as wrong as you.

                You clearly did not actually understand what your mechanic told you.

                A transmission cooler is exactly what it sounds like. It is built exactly like a radiator and works the same way. It is mounted in front of or next to the radiator for the engine. On a lot of newer cars it is actually part of the main radiator. Transmission fluid flows through it and excess heat is dumped into the air. On many vehicles it’s also served by the radiator fan, i.e. for situations where the vehicle is not getting airflow because it’s not moving.

                The torque converter is part of your automatic transmission literally operates by moving the transmission fluid. There is no separation between the transmission fluid used in the torque converter and the rest of the transmission where the hydraulic valves use it to actuate the clutch bands, etc. to shift gears. The same bath of transmission fluid is circulated through the torque converter, the rest of the transmission, and the transmission cooler.

                This is not a truck thing. Even my dinkum Saturn SL I had when I was a teenager that was so pathetic it was literally made of plastic and did not crack 100 horsepower had a transmission cooler – as designed from the factory. The vast majority of passenger vehicles made in the last half century or more with automatic transmissions have transmission coolers built in. It has nothing to do with towing, either.

                Your torque converter absolutely can be locked under acceleration and in fact, nearly all vehicles equipped with a locking torque converter do so as part of their normal shifting pattern when moving up through their gears. This is observable from the driver’s seat if you know what’s happening. The locking and unlocking of the torque converter feels like an “extra gear” in between the gears. Some Japanese cars from the 80’s have a “TC Locked” light on a dash that illuminates when the converter is locked and you can watch this happen in real time. The usual pattern is 1st gear, shift to 2nd gear, lock converter, unlock converter and shift to 3rd, lock converter, unlock converter and shift to 4th, etc. A traditional automatic transmission only has 4 gear ratios, but it will feel like it has seven. Guess why.

                Think about it real hard for a minute. A locked torque converter is the same, mechanically, as a fully engaged clutch. If you could not lock the torque converter during acceleration, by the same logic you would not be able to fully release the clutch pedal during acceleration on a manual transmission car, either. It is glaringly obvious that this is not the case.

                I am not a “random lemming.” I have four decades of actual real world mechanical experience and have disassembled and rebuilt more transmissions, engines, and vehicles in general than you have probably sat in throughout your entire life.

                • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                  5 months ago

                  A locked torque converter is the same, mechanically, as a fully engaged clutch.

                  Which stalls the motor under high torque load.

                  • dual_sport_dork 🐧🗡️@lemmy.world
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                    5 months ago

                    Tell us you didn’t read what I just wrote without telling us you didn’t read it.

                    The engine will only stall under load if it is at so low of an RPM that it is generating insufficient torque to overcome the inertia. Which if you are moving and in the correct gear for your speed is never.

                    Which is why your transmission has more than one gear.

                    Remember back 30 seconds ago when I told you to think? Actually try it this time. Or maybe plug some of your bullshit into Google first before continuing to make a fool of yourself in front of everybody.

              • interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
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                5 months ago

                No, you can accelerate and deccelerate. Only needs to unlock for gear changes.

                Only in city would the torque converter spend an appreciable amount of time unlocked but then again, in the city you won’t be moving fast either

                • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                  5 months ago

                  Neutral to one is a gear change and connecting gear one firmly to the motor is going to stall it when you’re accelerating from standstill. With a petrol engine just the torque needed to get going is going to stall it that’s why you slip the clutch with a manual, a trailer will also stall diesels.

                  With a torque converter in between you’ll also have to let it slip as it’s serving the function of a clutch. Trying to slip the lock of the converter will kill it pretty much instantly, it’s not build for that so you have to have it unlocked.

                  I was interpreting “constant speed” as “zero speed difference between motor and drive train” which was probably a bit of a brain fart. You need that slippage to not stall the motor.

    • lightnsfw@reddthat.com
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      5 months ago

      Ford and Hyundai have tried to bring service to that market with the Maverick and Santa Cruz

      They didn’t try very hard. The Maverick doesn’t have a single cab or full size bed option and the santa cruz looks like a SUV with 1/4 of the back chopped off.

      Here’s a comparison of a 2008 Ranger vs. a 2022 Maverick to show what I mean better. They’re roughly the same size but you lose so much with the Maverick.

      2008 RANGER Height 67.7 in. Length 203.6 in. Width 69.4 in. Wheelbase 125.9 in.

      2022 MAVERICK Height 68.7 in. Length 199.7 in. Width 72.6 in. Wheelbase 121.1 in.

      • Fedizen@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        the 2008 ranger is such a nice truck. Maverick is just a minivan with an open trunk. Might as well just get a real minivan.

        • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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          5 months ago

          I have a minivan and it carries everything we need. If I put down the back seats, it carries about as much ae a Ford Maverick, perhaps more. I can also fold or remove the middle seats for even more space, which is comparable to a full bed. The only thing it can’t really do is take dumps of mulch, gravel, etc, but it can tow a trailer for that.

          Minivans are fantastic.