I’m sorry, why the fuck aren’t these street legal in more than half of the states? The article says something about safety, but these are street legal all over Europe where we have stronger safety regulations.
Also there’s something I can’t put my finger on about the journalist choosing a hero image of the van losing its cargo.
Probably because it’s not safe to drive them around giant pickups who can’t see over their hoods
Europe and Japan all have freight trucks driving around, so I don’t buy that. The fact that many states won’t allow these is American truck manufacturing protectionism, nothing more. It’s the same reason you can only get a 3/4 or 1 ton truck from Ford, Chevy, or Ram (chicken tax).
Cab over engine freight trucks with excellent visibility, not jacked up chevys where your view of the ground starts 20 feet in front of you
And that’s precisely because the option isn’t readily available here. We can argue merits of different countries versus the US, but at the end of the day it is what it is unless something changes at the legislative level.
When say a contractor goes to purchase a work vehicle, the option is either a van, which have pathetic motors and hauling capabilities, or a pickup from one of the big 3 that can be outfitted with a utility body. Sometimes you can score one of those Isuzu cabovers, but they’re typically outfitted with a full sized box on the chassis, and they’re far and few between, and often more expensive. Vans are also stupid expensive, especially 4x4 models, because of the van life crowd. The options really are much more limited than other parts of the world, and I truly believe it’s to keep prices high and the money vacuum humming. Plus, you can find an older utility body truck for a fraction of the cost of a used van (I just did this 6 months ago; granted I’m in California, so my experience may not be the norm).
I ended up buying a Ram 2500 when looking for a work truck. I would’ve loved a 25/35 class van, but I need 4x4 (mountains, snow), and because of the premium those models fetch due to demand from the van life people, that wasn’t an option.
And I dunno about other people, but I know what’s in front of my truck at all times. It really isn’t that hard to mind your surroundings.
It’s all about the chicken tax.
The front view from a freight truck is better than that of a f150.
I’m sorry, their problem is that the massive trucks are somehow in danger because they weren’t designed to handle being hit by a vehicle less than half its size?
What a ridiculous statement.
And yet Smart cars are legal.
Smart cars had to pass US crash test standards and have the appropriate safety equipment. The kei trucks that you can currently import and use are 25+ years old and wouldn’t have even passed US standards back then. Your legs are the crumple zone in these things.
I assume that new ones would have a chance, but it’d be expensive for a manufacturer to modify and certify for the US market. Small cars haven’t sold well here, and the profit margins are slim.
Maybe with the recent size and price increases in autos here, well see some movement. I’d love a modern Honda kei to go with my element.
The crumple zone thing is a bit grey as the USA sells and allows trucks like the Isuzu NPR/Chevy Cab Over.
Ya. Everything’s expensive, so people buy the cheapest thing [with four wheels]. I don’t want folks on the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum to think these are a safe option.
If(?) a ‘90s Honda sedan is safer but the Kei is new and looks cute, for the same price many will choose the less safe option.
Eight Californians die on our roads every day here and I can’t wait for some solutions. I really do empathize with everyone you readers care about (no oil companies, no just-for-funsies-truck manufacturers) - I hate the thought of crumpled and crushed human bodies.
What makes you think it’s not safe?
Thin steel frame, no air bags, no crumple zones.
Check out the crash tests: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roLcNwRi1Sk&t=40s
Traditionally they’ve been banned because they don’t do well in crash testing, as they don’t have crumple zones or airbags. Here’s some testing from 2010 by the insurance industry arguing that they shouldn’t be on highways.
They’re not really safe. They are generally front heavy, so there is a risk of rolling forward, no crumple zone safety stuff, more often than not the front suspension is under the seat and if that breaks it would shoot up into the cabin, and on top of everything they are pretty slow. They have more in common with an off road Polaris than a traditional truck, which is to be expected because they were mostly designed to be farm trucks. I’d much rather be in an older s10 than a kei truck in the event of a crash (and s10’s aren’t very safe). I think I lot of why they are so popular these days is because there aren’t really any light trucks anymore, and these are an alternative.
We should take a step back: why do we need all those safety standards in the first place? The reason is that we have such gigantic vehicles in the first place, and smaller ones simply cannot be safe on the same road. Level that all down and suddenly Kei cars are as safe as they need to be.
Not really. I compared it to an older Chevy s10 for a reason. Those were relatively small trucks that, while not always the most reliable, are still a pretty decent option for most people. Kei trucks are a smidge smaller, but are better on gas and frankly less safe. I don’t think this is a “get rid of bigger vehicles and this goes away” but of a “Kei trucks aren’t really any safer than an off-road golf cart and current regulations allows them on the road”. We need the safety regulations so less people die on Auto accidents, and kei trucks don’t really have to comply with even the basic ones.
The problem is not even big trucks. It is medium speed collisions with barriers. Kei trucks typically don’t have air bags or a crumple zone. They are designed for low speed driving on open roads.
Protectionism.
Speed restrictions.
Kei trucks were designed for use in dense Japanese cities, which is why they also work in European cities. They are nimble but have a low top speed. You’re not going 70 mph around a street corner for instance.
It would work in places like NYC for the same reasons, but remember that most of the USA is suburban or rural. You need vehicles that are capable of going fast if you’re going to get on a highway.
A possible workaround is to have a separate class for these, like mopeds or scooters, which are road legal but are not highway legal.
That work around is what most states that explicitly legalized kei trucks have done, they can’t enter roads over 55mph. It’s a reasonable concession, you probably don’t want to take one over 50mph anyway.
They don’t meet the us safety standards. It could mean a lot of things like lacking 5mph bumpers, air bags, abs, etc.
Doesn’t mean they aren’t safe.
Doesn’t mean they aren’t safe.
At just 31MPH a Kei truck gets absolutely clobbered in front offset and side impact safety tests, even against small vehicles like Smart Cars and the old (small) Ford Rangers. Like don’t bother calling an ambulance just the morgue kind of clobbered.
Kei trucks are neat vehicles and I’d like to have one but scientific testing shows that they are not safe.
Just because a vehicle doesn’t meet us safety standards doesn’t mean they aren’t safe. It also doesn’t mean they are safe.
Also, aren’t these all 25 years old or older? Safety expectations should be lower.
yet people are killed / injured on european road at much smaller rate than in the US. the best US state is less safe than even the worst canadian province (and canada isnt even good). the US treats its roads like a car crash derby so it needs “higher standards”, but that approach is provably terrible. not only vehicules are huge and wasteful, but the roads remain horribly unsafe as well.
Besides taking way less space on the road or while parking, you’ll only have to lift your stuff half the way up to the RAM or something like it. I personally like not breaking my back.
What is the too small for road safety thing? That’s pure bullshit, right? Smart cars are legal, how can these not be?
Give us cheap EVs and small trucks god damnit!!!
They don’t pass US federal crash tests, probably because of the lack of crumple zone, so they can’t be imported until they’re 25 years old. Which doesn’t make them any safer, but I guess rules are rules:
Because the trucks don’t meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards, they’re legal to import only 25 years after having been manufactured. Then, it’s up to each state to decide whether to allow them on public roads.
I have one. No crumple zone. No airbags. Slow acceleration. Can’t reach highway speeds. No headrest.
But it’s my favorite car ever. I just treat it like I’m riding a motorcycle. I’m dead in an accident, so I try to be hyper-aware.
I guess it’s just the lack of any crumple zone, similar to the VW van your legs are essentially the crumple zone.
Sounds like some lack basic safety equipment like seat-belts.
It might be more about what vehicles share the road. SUVs and pickups tend to cause the majority of fatalities in crashes because their bumper height basically being non compatible with cars and vans and their larger blindspots… That design might not play particularly well with the Keis in crash situations.
But that being said SUVs and raised pickups are menaces to road safety across the board and we should be looking at phasing them out.
Because there’s a market for functional, minimalist vehicles that do a job and don’t require 8 or more years of payments. Trucks have become status symbols more often than not.
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Kei trucks have the same, if not slightly bigger/smaller, bed size as a modern F-150. But they’re basically the size of Honda Fits.
I’ve wanted one since I worked for USPS and learned to drive on the right side of a vehicle. My state does allow you to register them and drive them on the road, but alas, I cannot afford one. :(
Kei trucks only can carry like 800 pounds. I run a bar and regularly take my pickup truck, a 2500, to its bed capacity of roughly 3000 lbs. I’ve had it sitting low just in empties before. A Kei truck can’t even haul my motorcycle if it breaks down. Now someone who’s a full time contractor, would call that thing useless, a farmer might buy one instead of a John Deere gator or side by side. It’d be suitable for golf course maintenance.
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Yeah, a ranger would be ideal for a run around, could even tow my old camper, thing only weighs 3000 lbs. I’d just have to make more frequent beer runs of lesser amounts. At least a ranger can hold an old harley.
Chicken tax and EPA nuttery. It’s fucking bullshit.
Ford and Hyundai have tried to bring service to that market with the Maverick and Santa Cruz, respectively. My folks have one and love it, but I’ve found most people still complain because they “don’t need that big if a truck” but then you mention towing/hauling capacity and they say “well why can’t it just tow something small like an F150 does? I’m not trying to get a dually but if I didn’t want to do X then I’d just get a car!” I suspect most people’s “truck needs” would be accommodated but fomo and marketing leads buyers astray even when they already know what they want. Or they’re fickle and just need something to complain about.
What do you find people want to tow? I’m often at a loss when people bring this up because I’ve never once had a moment in my life where I was disappointed by the lack of towing capacity of my small car
Camping. Boats. Moving furniture. Gay party floats. The list goes on.
What the heck do you need to tow for camping if you have a pickup truck? I can see boats, but boat people buy the towing capacity they need. Not the size of truck.
Is legal here to tow two trailers if the first is 5th wheel. You can bumper hitch a boat behind your camper. This take a fairly serious truck, and is why I have a 5th wheel trailer that’s only 19 feet.
Note that Americans basically all drive automatic transmissions, those have a thing called a torque converter. Unless that part is actively cooled it’s going to overheat when asked to do high-torque stuff over prolonged durations and as that active cooling needs space and weight it generally only comes with truck-sized vehicles.
In short: The reason Americans don’t haul caravans and horses and boats with cars is because they can’t drive stick.
?
Every automatic transmission car sold since the 1970’s and probably earlier has had a transmission cooler, right there alongside or in front of the radiator.
Also all of them have locking torque converters so there is no energy loss at constant speed. Also also, unless going upward at an incline. Most of the power requirements come from aerodynamic drag, not rolling friction of the trailer.
You can’t lock the converter when accelerating because
that’s not a constant speedyou’ll stall the motor under the torque load, and to accelerate you need to overcome momentum. Neither drag nor rolling friction are anywhere close to high torque.And I have no idea what the previous poster meant with a transmission cooler, I guess it’s a different thing because a torque converter very much is not a transmission, if you want to compare it to anything then to a clutch. In any case I’ve got that explanation from an actual American actual car mechanic and random lemmings aren’t going to change my mind especially while making no mechanical sense.
A torque converter is part of the whole transmission system even if it’s a separate housing. When you buy a new transmission, it comes with a torque converter.
Torque converters also create the majority of heat in automatic transmissions and are why automatic transmissions get coolers in the first place. How many manuals have you seen with transmission coolers?
No, you can accelerate and deccelerate. Only needs to unlock for gear changes.
Only in city would the torque converter spend an appreciable amount of time unlocked but then again, in the city you won’t be moving fast either
Torque converters use transmission fluid to operate, that tranny fluid goes through a cooler.
Wow. The remaining 7,950,999,999 people on this planet now have something to be thankful for, because none of them are as wrong as you.
You clearly did not actually understand what your mechanic told you.
A transmission cooler is exactly what it sounds like. It is built exactly like a radiator and works the same way. It is mounted in front of or next to the radiator for the engine. On a lot of newer cars it is actually part of the main radiator. Transmission fluid flows through it and excess heat is dumped into the air. On many vehicles it’s also served by the radiator fan, i.e. for situations where the vehicle is not getting airflow because it’s not moving.
The torque converter is part of your automatic transmission literally operates by moving the transmission fluid. There is no separation between the transmission fluid used in the torque converter and the rest of the transmission where the hydraulic valves use it to actuate the clutch bands, etc. to shift gears. The same bath of transmission fluid is circulated through the torque converter, the rest of the transmission, and the transmission cooler.
This is not a truck thing. Even my dinkum Saturn SL I had when I was a teenager that was so pathetic it was literally made of plastic and did not crack 100 horsepower had a transmission cooler – as designed from the factory. The vast majority of passenger vehicles made in the last half century or more with automatic transmissions have transmission coolers built in. It has nothing to do with towing, either.
Your torque converter absolutely can be locked under acceleration and in fact, nearly all vehicles equipped with a locking torque converter do so as part of their normal shifting pattern when moving up through their gears. This is observable from the driver’s seat if you know what’s happening. The locking and unlocking of the torque converter feels like an “extra gear” in between the gears. Some Japanese cars from the 80’s have a “TC Locked” light on a dash that illuminates when the converter is locked and you can watch this happen in real time. The usual pattern is 1st gear, shift to 2nd gear, lock converter, unlock converter and shift to 3rd, lock converter, unlock converter and shift to 4th, etc. A traditional automatic transmission only has 4 gear ratios, but it will feel like it has seven. Guess why.
Think about it real hard for a minute. A locked torque converter is the same, mechanically, as a fully engaged clutch. If you could not lock the torque converter during acceleration, by the same logic you would not be able to fully release the clutch pedal during acceleration on a manual transmission car, either. It is glaringly obvious that this is not the case.
I am not a “random lemming.” I have four decades of actual real world mechanical experience and have disassembled and rebuilt more transmissions, engines, and vehicles in general than you have probably sat in throughout your entire life.
They stopped SELLING THEM TO US!!!
Ford and Hyundai have tried to bring service to that market with the Maverick and Santa Cruz
They didn’t try very hard. The Maverick doesn’t have a single cab or full size bed option and the santa cruz looks like a SUV with 1/4 of the back chopped off.
Here’s a comparison of a 2008 Ranger vs. a 2022 Maverick to show what I mean better. They’re roughly the same size but you lose so much with the Maverick.
2008 RANGER Height 67.7 in. Length 203.6 in. Width 69.4 in. Wheelbase 125.9 in.
2022 MAVERICK Height 68.7 in. Length 199.7 in. Width 72.6 in. Wheelbase 121.1 in.
the 2008 ranger is such a nice truck. Maverick is just a minivan with an open trunk. Might as well just get a real minivan.
I have a minivan and it carries everything we need. If I put down the back seats, it carries about as much ae a Ford Maverick, perhaps more. I can also fold or remove the middle seats for even more space, which is comparable to a full bed. The only thing it can’t really do is take dumps of mulch, gravel, etc, but it can tow a trailer for that.
Minivans are fantastic.
We desperately need smaller vehicles to counter the behemoth light trucks that are in the road today. Everything about these kei truck bans just scream corruption and incompetence from politicians to domestic auto manufacturers.
“Light” trucks. A real light truck is something like the Toyota Hilux up through the 5th or 6th generation.
My S10 is a “light truck.” A Silverado 3500 is not.
They stopped making Honda Fits (in North America) because there was no demand.
This is true, yet I see a lot of them on the road and speaking for my circle of people I know plenty of people who want them. It’s a shame really as I was only left with the civic and that’s the same size as my old accord.
Americans just love being the biggest on the road. Bigger is better in their minds. Maybe we put an extra tax on very large vehicles.
I’d love to see a comeback of vehicles like 1980s Toyota and Mazda pickups. Just a bit taller than sedans, good sized bed. I never understood the popularity of trucks that almost need a mini ladder to get into when they’re being used strictly in an urban or suburban setting.
Yeah it’s just people trying to show how big their penis is with a car
We need to require special licenses for those behemoths.
I’d prefer they get banned entirely because there’s really no practical use for them that isn’t solved by some other commercial vehicle.
How long until these are banned ?
We are the party of free market capitalism! We won’t allow rules to stop us from polluting the shit out of everything, we won’t allow rules that will make the world better! We only allow rules that block the competitors of our biggest bribers
Free market for me, not for thee.
This is it basically. People think free markets are bad for humanity, but all the problems are for when people just reach out and stop the free market from happening.
That’s government’s job: maintain an actually free market, where new people can come in and give people what they want, when the existing guys fail to do so.
It takes active input of energy to maintain that state of affairs. There will always be people who want to take control of it in unfair ways and get profit without providing the best value to the people, and it’s in our collective best interests to stop those people. So it’s legit to spend taxes on things like breaking up monopolies or maintaining infrastructure.
Free market doesn’t mean it happens naturally. It used to happen more naturally, because the total amount of power a person could wield over others was limited. But ever since we’ve had armies and ultra wealthy families and huge companies, all of which can exert power over individuals, a free market is a thing which requires government enforcement to maintain.
I think our problem might be that our government isn’t financially dominant. It is militarily dominant, and so it’s able to maintain the relative safety that comes from having a monopoly on violence. But the government doesn’t have a monopoly on financial power and so it can be overpowered by money.
It’s already happening in some states
We have these trucks in Taiwan. It’s quite literally the majority of the trucks on the road. These things are not allowed on the highways because a crash in them will result in likely death.
Instead they are only allowed on local roads where our speeds don’t reach anything more than 40km/hr. Even then, the crashes I have seen in them, the driver is always hurt.
I know Lemmy likes to dream about owning a kei truck. But keep in mind that these trucks are not safe in crashes. They were never designed with the speeds that Americans see on a daily basis.
I just want a Kei car in Germany
Been to Japan lately and can share some photos. There are even Kei Fire Trucks, for the many small roads with wooden houses and shrines etc.
And then there are hundreds of different kei truck and van types for all purposes, even concrete mixers.
Also, private houses in cities are often small and space-saving and so are the cars. A sensible use of public space – and cars only park on private property or rented parking spaces.
This is just freaking adorable!
I guess the size has something to do with the size of Japanese roads and back alley space?
Neither the fire truck nor the concrete truck are Kei class vehicles.
They are small diesel trucks, yes, but Kei literally means ‘light’ and have strict weight limits on both the weight of the vehicle and how much load they can carry.
Well, those are also not vehicles that the average citizen buys. They’re specialized for their purpose, the fire truck needs to transport a decent amount of water and 4-5 people, and concrete is heavy stuff. But in a certain way they follow the same design philosophy.
So people are tired of paying 60 to 90k for an f150 or a Dodge ram? You don’t say!
As much as overpaying sucks, that thing is just asking to get obliterated on an American road.
Are American roads like one of those bumper car thingies of the amusement parks?
A great number of people use highways the way you would drive a race track.
Or just use them in cities or rural areas. Not everyone goes onto the freeway everyday.
Reminder that due to the chicken tax, these vehicles have to be 25 years old before they can be imported.
The big problem is, these vehicles were built to 30 year old safety standards - no vehicle from the 1990’s (except maybe a SAAB, and even then they’re not strong enough anymore and will fail a small offset frontal) can compete with a modern car in safety requirements.
There is also the fact that these vehicles have been around for 25 years, and have that amount of age and wear on their platform - they won’t be as strong as they originally were off the production line.
no vehicle from the 1990’s (except maybe a SAAB, and even then they’re not strong enough anymore and will fail a small offset frontal) can compete with a modern car in safety requirements.
Americans keep building bigger trucks and raising speed limits, then bemoaning how small vehicles aren’t safe enough to survive an 80mph impact with a 10,000 pound vehicle.
You think these Keis are dangerous? Try riding a bike.
I call bs, a motorcycle provides way less protection. And which states are they illegal in? Lobbying and another money grab from corporations in our “free market” society. I would love one of these BTW.
Motorcycles have different licensing requirements, and come with caveat emptor that they are inherently unsafe in a motor vehicle accident.
That’s not to say bikes don’t have any safety at all… there is R&D that goes into making them safe in a collision… as safe as they can be.
Why can’t we just accept that the KEI is less safe then?
I’m always shocked by this. In a world with seatbelt laws, crumple zones, backup cameras, pinch protection, etc we allow people to ride motorcycles that consistently get injured or killed. How they haven’t gotten banned or stupidly restricted is beyond me. Even with a motorcycle lane, getting in a wreck at 75mph would be seriously bad.
In my state, I’m pretty sure you can ride a motorcycle legally with a helmet and a tshirt on, but get pulled over and fined for not wearing a seatbelt, lol.
Used commonly in railway maintenance in Japan! This budget friendly truck is favoured by JR which want to cut budget on everything.
Any idea what that MOW truck is for? The second cab in the rear is really throwing me off.
The 2nd cab is just so they can drive forward in either direction on the rail.
For towing ?
If it was just for towing it wouldnt have a cab in the rear like that.
That’s nowhere in the same size class as OPs. It’s just the same style with a cab-forward design. It’s probably a 3-ton.
How about this?
That’s the same model. Its a much heavier duty truck than these little flitter trucks referred to in the OP.
I’m not sure what you’re not understanding here.
Should be correct now? Not really good at identifying car.
That’s more like it.
I’ve wanted one of these for decades but the options are pay out the ass for import fees or buy a 30 year old model, neither fee great. Hate that my government is apparently dead set on all of us driving massive trucks and SUVs over realist vehicles
Hate that my government is apparently dead set on all of us
driving massive trucks and SUVsspending thousands to money lenders, auto manufacturers, and dealerships over realist vehicles.Doubly so if those parties are campaign contributors. Always follow the money.
It’s almost as if car manufacturers and big oil write the laws to increase their own profit margins…
If these don’t meet road safety requirements then it won’t get better
The giant American trucks don’t meet American road standards…
What standards do they not meet?
