- cross-posted to:
- artificial_intel@lemmy.ml
- hackernews@lemmy.smeargle.fans
- cross-posted to:
- artificial_intel@lemmy.ml
- hackernews@lemmy.smeargle.fans
Q. Is this really as harmful as you think?
A. Go to your parents house, your grandparents house etc and look at their Windows PC, look at the installed software in the past year, and try to use the device. Run some antivirus scans. There’s no way this implementation doesn’t end in tears — there’s a reason there’s a trillion dollar security industry, and that most problems revolve around malware and endpoints.
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They OCR the entire screen and store it in plaintext?! There is no way… I know it’s Microsoft we’re talking about, but are they really this stupid?
It’s encrypted; the author is pointing out that it has to be decrypted to be used, and then the data can be obtained.
Security and privacy concerns aside, I saw someone commenting on the use case, asking who would ever want something like this.
One problem I hadn’t appreciated for a long time was that some people apparently have real problems with dealing with the Windows UI in terms of file access. They don’t know where their data is being saved. This, in my opinion, is in significant part a Microsoft UI problem induced by various virtual interfaces being slapped on top of the filesystem (“Desktop”, “My Documents”, application save directories, etc) to try to patch over the issue that the filesystem layout was kinda organically-designed in a kind of cryptic way back in the day.
But if you can remember a snippet of text in what you were working on, you can find that thing again even if you have no idea where you stored it. Like, it’s content-keyed file access.
That’s not very useful to a techie. They know how to navigate their system’s filesystem, and even if they lose track of a particular thing, they know how to use the system’s filesystem search tools to search for filenames or content. They can search for recently-modified files. They know how to generally get ahold of stuff.
But for the people who can’t do that, reducing their interface to a single search box might make file access more approachable.
Now, let me reiterate that I think that a whole lot of this is Microsoft repeatedly patching over UI problems they created in the past rather than fixing them. And they’ve done this before over the decades with stuff other than document access. It’s hard to navigate the filesystem to find an installed program a la the MS-DOS era, so they stick stuff in a Start Menu to make it more accessible. That gets too crowded, installers start slapping shortcuts on the desktop. That gets too crowded, installers start adding system tray icons. That gets too crowded, the Start Menu becomes searchable. Each interface just becomes progressively less-usable and the solution each time is to stick a new interface in on top of the old one, which in turn contributes to the complexity of the system as a whole.
But that doesn’t mean that they aren’t trying to address a real problem.
I think that they’d do better with something like having a rapidly-accessible log of recently-accessed files (like, maybe have the filesystem maintain a time-based doubly-linked list of those) and be able to rapidly search the content of documents based on mod time so that recent stuff gets hit quickly, then trying to make their existing search tools more accessible. That doesn’t replicate data across the system and produce some of the problems here. It also permits for fully-searching content, rather than just the stuff that was on a screen when the Recall system grabbed a screenshot and OCRed it. Maybe they’ve done something like that in recent years; I’m many years out-of-date on Windows.
I’d also add that I think that personal computer systems in general would benefit from giving users better control over where their data is replicated to. It’s kind of confusing…you’ve got swap (well, encrypted swap probably helps somewhat with this). Browser history. Any clipboard manager’s retention. Credentials stores. Application-saved copies of in-progress files. Various caches. If you use some kind of cloud-based storage, you’re pushing data out to other computers. Backups. Just a lot of state that can be replicated all over the place and is hard to go back and track down and remove. That’s even before stuff like issues with doing secure deletion on existing filesystems (which we had a conversation about the other day, everything from log-structured filesystems to wear-leveling on SSDs inducing data replication). If you want something definitely gone, be able to manage your data’s lifetime, something that I think that a lot of people – even non-techies – would like, you really have to have a lot of technical knowledge of the system’s internals as things stand today. This Recall thing is egregious, replicates data all over, but it’s far from the first feature that makes it harder for people to understand and control the lifetime of data on their computer.
I don’t think that the software world has done a great job of letting people control that data lifetime. And I think that it’s something that a user should reasonably be able to expect out of their computer.
There was an article going around a while ago that was arguing most users these days, including the youth we often stereotype as “digital natives” who “get computers”, don’t understand file systems. They might not even know they exist as a concept.
Which makes sense if you’ve only ever really used modern UIs. You don’t have to know anything about files and folders. I bet a lot of people don’t even know they exist in any meaningful way.
Most users are shockingly ignorant, and a lot of them are not really paying enough attention or interested enough to learn much.
I remember reading an article a few years back about physics undergraduates who didnt know how to use a computers file system. They could learn, but these are smart likely at least fairly tech inclined kids and they didnt know how to navigate folders on a computer at 18.
When I studied Computer Engineering, I met several other students who had a lot of trouble using the Windows file system, and navigating a file system through a terminal was a Herculean task for them.
Most people growing up now, and since over a decade ago, are only tech savvy in the sense they know how to use smartphones, tablets, and social media; none of those require any understanding of file systems, and even using desktops doesn’t really require it that much for most people.
I’m simply baffled that someone going into a computer engineering major at a university doesn’t understand a hierarchical file system as a matter of course. It’s a tree. The file system is a tree. A tree is one of the most basic computer science logical constructs. How exactly is a filesystem confusing? How is navigating directories from a terminal - any terminal, in any OS - a Herculean task?
As reasonable the concerns are… it seems like there’s quite a bit of fearmongering over software and hardware that haven’t even really gotten into the mainstream yet.
Unpopular Opinion: This is why Microsoft were such assholes about making sure Windows 11 required a modern TPM and this is also why they are forcefully rolling out Bitlocker encryption turned on by default on all Windows 11 PCs.
Is Recall still a fucking stupid idea? Yes, resoundingly so. But they’ve half-ass considered the risks, it seems. The forceful rollout of Bitlocker is dumb and short-sighted in its own right, and it wouldn’t make a person completely secure from outside attacks rooted in a Recall exposure.
That’s not an unpopular opinion, it’s an outrageously stupid and uninformed one and you should keep it to yourself.
This is a feature hundreds of millions of people will use and very likely won’t cause any security issues. These doomsday scenarios every Linux user here is predicting is a bit much, don’t you think so?
Did you read the article?
This system basically do a character recognition on EVERYTHING the user is displaying and save the results in a very small file not that well protected.
The data is very small (I guess because it’s basically text?), seems easy to find. That means the history of all you did on your computer (apparently only for the last three feays by default,but well…) can be stolen at once, in a minuscule file.
I’m not an IT specialist, but I don’t see in which world this can remotely be a good idea…
As I understand not everything will be read and stored, storage will be encrypted. We don’t even know what exactly will be stored and everybody here is losing their mind.
We already have a lot of sensitive information on our computers and nobody is panicking.
I guess it’s hard to get used to new stuff. Or maybe Linux users are afraid that their favourite system won’t be able to compete anymore.
You didn’t read the article.
We do know the answers to these questions. And if I can use a 2 line script to exfiltrate all your screen data for days/weeks in under a few MB of data.
So better hope you, never, ever, ever run unauthorized or malicious code, because now it basically has a honeypot of top priority data, always stored in a known location and compressed for easy uploads.
What kind of malicious code would be able to do that?
Q. The data is processed entirely locally on your laptop, right? A. Yes! They made some smart decisions here, there’s a whole subsystem of Azure AI etc code that process on the edge. Q. Cool, so hackers and malware can’t access it, right? A. No, they can. Q. But it’s encrypted. A. When you’re logged into a PC and run software, things are decrypted for you. Encryption at rest only helps if somebody comes to your house and physically steals your laptop — that isn’t what criminal hackers do. For example, InfoStealer trojans, which automatically steal usernames and passwords, are a major problem for well over a decade — now these can just be easily modified to support Recall. Q. But the BBC said data cannot be accessed remotely by hackers. A. They were quoting Microsoft, but this is wrong. Data can be accessed remotely. Q. Microsoft say only that user can access the data. A. This isn’t true, I can demonstrate another user account on the same device accessing the database. Q. So how does it work? A. Every few seconds, screenshots are taken. These are automatically OCR’d by Azure AI, running on your device, and written into an SQLite database in the user’s folder. This database file has a record of everything you’ve ever viewed on your PC in plain text. OCR is a process of looking an image, and extracting the letters. Q. What does the database look like? A:https://twitter.com/GossiTheDog/status/1796218726808748367?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1796218726808748367%7Ctwgr%5E2eccf634534245a77c4f931d8722f1b8c6f23595%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.embedly.com%2Fwidgets%2Fmedia.html%3Ftype%3Dtext2Fhtmlkey%3Da19fcc184b9711e1b4764040d3dc5c07schema%3Dtwitterurl%3Dhttps3A%2F%2Fx.com%2FGossiTheDog%2Fstatus%2F1796218726808748367image%3D Q. How do you obtain the database files? A. They’re just files in AppData, in the new CoreAIPlatform folder. Q. But it’s highly encrypted and nobody can access them, right?! A. Here’s a few second video of two Microsoft engineers accessing the folder: https://cyberplace.social/system/media_attachments/files/112/535/509/719/447/038/original/7352074f678f6dec.mp4 Q. …But, normal users don’t run as admins! A. According to Microsoft’s own website, in their Recall rollout page, they do: https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:1100/format:webp/0*WGE1jcRzhe6WAGQS In fact, you don’t even need to be an admin to read the database — more on that in a later blog. Q. But a UAC prompt appeared in that video, that’s a security boundary. A. According to Microsoft’s own website (and MSRC), UAC is not a security boundary: https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:1100/format:webp/1*TTjYNH15IoP_d8JhhG3cEA.png Q. So… where is the security here? A. They have tried to do a bunch of things but none of it actually works properly in the real world due to gaps you can drive a plane through. Q. Does it automatically not screenshot and OCR things like financial information? A. No: https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:1100/format:webp/1*OZMjujpALL3IfAQYT64x7Q.pngDo I have to continue or do you think you could actually read the article for the rest? It’s clearly a bigger deal than “linux users mad because windows better” and your poor excuse for a troll just makes it look like you’re too stupid to read the article laid out in front of you. Well, now you have no excuse so get good.
Sorry I don’t take everyones word as truth. This guy is just one guy. One guy against the whole Microsoft corporation whose entire fortune depends on this not to fail in the way he said it certainly will. Absurd.
Lol you’re hopeless.
Based on what Microsoft themselves said we know: everything will be stored (except edge private session…). They specifically say they don’t do content moderation: they log everything.
Did you read the article?
Q. Cool, so hackers and malware can’t access it, right?
A. No, they can.
Q. But it’s encrypted.
A. When you’re logged into a PC and run software, things are decrypted for you. Encryption at rest only helps if somebody comes to your house and physically steals your laptop — that isn’t what criminal hackers do.
As a windows user I’m not delighted by this.
Edit: at this point you must be trolling…
If you are so afraid, you can just turn it of. You are aware of this are you not?
OK if you think I’m trolling, why did you answer?
I give you the benefit of the doubt you are a reasonable person who can go beyond their emotions of a feature of an os. And the emotions this article stirred.
Encryption at rest is meaningless if you get infected with spyware.
Are you braindead? Yes yes taking regular screenshots of the desktop can’t possibly be a security risk, right?
You can define almost anything as a security risk. But we aren’t children to play such stupid games.
We are talking about someone gaining that information and the probability of that happening without even knowing what security mesaures will be in place. I think the risk is negligible even today with the limited information about it that we have now. Other People here, presumably you as well are hysterical about it.
Thats what the discussion is. You actually believe Microsoft will launch this and then everybody will be hacked or something. I think that is… not smart.
No, I don’t think “everyone will get hacked or something”, don’t put words in my. I mouth for the sake of your argument.
What it is, and this is undeniable, is a massive fucking privacy and security hole if someone gains control of your computer.
I didn’t want to put words in your mouth, but wanted to clear up where each of us stand so there is no missunderstanding.
If somebody gains control of your computer today, that’s a massive privacy and security hole in itself.
If you didn’t want to put words in someone’s mouth then you shouldn’t have said something like
You actually believe Microsoft will launch this and then everybody will be hacked or something.
Oh a knight in shining armour trying to defend my dialogue partner?
Did you ask anyone needed defense? Because I’m pretty sure they don’t.
If you read carefully I wrote “or something” at the end implying that I don’t know exactly what they believe. It was not that subtle of invitation for them to agree with my first assessment or correct me. I will try to be really blunt in the future, so that you don’t missunderstand again.
? I’m not defending anyone, I’m calling out bullshit when I see it
I don’t really care that you like watching kids through their bedroom windows or whatever
If that doesn’t accurately describe your views, no worries—I said “or whatever,” so it’s fine
Absolutely, but even with control of your computer, if you’re smart, other accounts etc will still be inaccessible by the attacker.
Not when they get access to the Windows built in desktop spy saving everything it sees.
Not if it’s encrypted and if sensitive information is not saved.
Main point is still that gaining control of someone’s computer against their will is practically impossible today. If someone manages to do it, they already have your files and all the sensitive information they could want. They won’t even bother with this recall. And if you are worried about it, you will be able to just turn it off.
Much ado about nothing.
“If sensitive information is not saved” is doing a lot of heavy lifting for you there. The issue is that it saves everything.
Oh it WILL cause security issues. It’s just a tradeoff against if they are worth the benefits.
There likely won’t be anything major while 1. 4 billion people will benefit. Security measures will be adapted for this new feature.
This same thing happened before, a lot of panic for nothing.
Define “new security measures”
I don’t know. We will both be able to discover them when the features are deployed.
This is a senseless hysteria about how this is horrible and… I don’t even want to go into all the dumb shit I read.
very likely won’t cause any security issues.
Hahahahaha. Oh wait, you’re serious? Let me laugh even harder. HAHAHA
You are the clown with a sign: the end is nigh. You are being naive.
You’re being exceptionally - and genuinely stupidly - naiive.
Sure. Why not. These hysterical people here panicking are the chosen ones that know and understand everything.
We’ve seen it before, it’s not idle speculation. Windows machines have been the hosts of the largest botnets in the world. Whenever a company does something stupid like this it invariably gets into the wrong hands. It’s not even a question of if it will happen just when it will happen.
Oh and it’s not “Linux users” saying it, it’s everybody with an ounce of technical common sense. We’re all here shouting at Microsoft “it’s a bad idea” and they won’t care and it will go exactly as badly as predicted.
Oh and it’s not “Linux users” saying it, it’s everybody with an ounce of technical common sense.
Which kinda correlate with each other. Which allows for a certain bad faith argument to be made.
Yes, we have seen it many times before. Much ado about nothing. New feature that will mean some new security measures. Everybody will move on and in a year nobody will remember how some people in the Linux community were panicking.
I will never find out exactly when your bank data is stolen because of this, so I’m just going to laugh about it now.
Go ahead laugh. Because you will indeed forget all about it and never remember your doubts and panic laughter as nothing will happen.
