It’s also worth clarifying that ProtonMail doesn’t collect IP addresses by default. Instead, the monitoring/ logging starts after ProtonMail gets a legal request.
They still have to adhere to legal requests.
they should inform the victim about it
Under Swiss law, ProtonMail should notify the user if a third party makes a request for their private data and if the data is for a criminal proceeding. However, there’s a big catch/ loophole here. On its law enforcement page, ProtonMail highlights that the notification can be delayed in the following cases:
Where providing notice is temporarily prohibited by the Swiss legal process itself, by Swiss court order, or applicable Swiss law;
Where, based on information supplied by law enforcement, we, in our absolute discretion, believe that providing notice could create a risk of injury, death, or irreparable damage to an identifiable individual or group of individuals;
As a general rule though, targeted users will eventually be informed and afforded the opportunity to object to the data request, either by ProtonMail or by Swiss authorities.
This incident seems to fall under the first case, and that’s why ProtonMail didn’t notify the user. “Some orders are final and cannot be appealed, that’s just how the legal system works, not everything can be appealed. The user wasn’t notified for the same reason that you don’t notify a suspect before arresting them,” says ProtonMail founder Andy Yen.
Yes, exactly.
Privacy is and should be a right, absolutely if you’ve done nothing wrong.
But it doesn’t absolve anyone from the right to shroud from any crime committed, period.
if you’ve done nothing wrong
Through who’s lens?
When a person is raped and seeking an abortion from Texas, do they deserve to be stripped of privacy? What about countries that see being gay a crime?
I don’t particularly care about proton outing people, but they should absolutely be restricted from advertising that they’re more private or secure than any other provider out there.
Apples and Oranges comparisons here also, you’re making some bad examples out of the gate that probably isn’t worth breaking down.
When Proton advertises about being more private and secure. That’s a lot to be said there than say Google, who dances badly to the tune of “we’re not evil”, lying to your face on a consistent basis. You won’t ever know if Google is reading anything you’ve got in your little GMail box or what you decide to use in the services they offer. Do you truly believe that you’re getting privacy from all fronts from the countless things Google offers you? It’s too good to be true. Why do you think it knows so much about you when you use several of their services?
that probably isn’t worth breaking down.
I could say the same about your comment.
Yeah because you have nothing intelligent to reply with. Don’t be choking on those upvotes of similarly minded people who also probably have nothing intelligent to add or any answers to what I presented. Still doesn’t paint you any smarter.
what an eloquent way to get blocked!
Apart from it’s an old story, discussed already back and forth, Proton’s claims regarding privacy are really weak. Especially when it comes to presenting Switzerlamd as a privacy safehaven. Switzerland is a tax evasion savehaven, not a privacy safehaven, Proton. How Proton puts it: we provide world class privacy (but have to break our claims and comply with Swiss law immediately once there is a legitimate or not request from law enforcement, oepsie sorreyy!)
Why is this a surprise? IP Logging is pretty normal for any service.
2.5 IP logging: by default, we do not keep permanent IP logs in relation with your Account. However, IP logs may be kept temporarily to combat abuse and fraud, and your IP address may be retained permanently if you are engaged in activities that breach our Terms of Service (e.g. spamming, DDoS attacks against our infrastructure, brute force attacks). The legal basis of this processing is our legitimate interest to protect our service against non-compliant or fraudulent activities. If you enable authentication logging for your Account or voluntarily participate in Proton’s advanced security program, the record of your login IP addresses is kept for as long as the feature is enabled. This feature is off by default, and all the records are deleted upon deactivation of the feature. The legal basis of this processing is consent, and you are free to opt in or opt out of that processing at any time in the security panel of your Account. The authentication logs feature records login attempts to your Account and does not track product-specific activity, such as VPN activity.
Source: Their privacy policy.
That’s some funny language around “May be obtained permanently” though. Is this minority report? Do they know ahead of time that someone is going to violate their TOS?
That said, I’m not totally against proton mail. It’s a lot better than other free alternatives. Of which there are few left. I’m sure Gmail tracks the IP of your rectum.
This seems necessary if they’re to maintain an IP ban list. You shouldn’t just be able to unban yourself by submitting an information deletion request.
This is stupid though. IP addresses in many homes rotate, so IP ban lists are utterly ineffective and could very well ban the wrong people.
Welcome to selfhost email, many large ip block banned, fuck you, use large email service.
I would rather they have funny language in their privacy policy opposed to mandatory logging, they have to cover themselves legally as well so they got to utilize legal-ise so they aren’t sued into the dirt.
I’m sure Gmail tracks the IP of your rectum.
I bet Google predicted you would say that!
Proton needs to get its head out of its ass and fire Andy already, grow a pair and get off Reddit and back onto Mastodon and face the backlash like actual adults.
Okay so I do remember this issue being brought up a long time ago so it’s not exactly news and the author has a poor time lapse of events.
ProtonMail is not like a safe haven for any criminal operation, that would make Proton incredibly liable. Just like Telegram became with what’s been happening with trafficking and children-related incidents.
Secondly, an IP address is like stupidly easy to get anyways on someone unless VPN.
There is just so many things wrong that people are not taking into account but I guess let others go on self-virtuous parades to demonize Proton. If you understand laws, this is not a problem. If you understand tech, you’d realize the same. If you understand both, then hooray! You get it.
There seems to be no suggestion yet that any crime was committed on/using ProtonMail itself. Just that it was a tool to track someone accused of offline crimes. So this comment feels like misdirection because there are probably options between being liable and effectively telling the cops where users are.
They have to abide by court orders.
Do Swiss courts not allow any defence to be presented?
I don’t know Swiss law well enough to answer that. But getting mad that a company followed the laws they’re bound to by their jurisdiction is dumb.
Proton are very open about what they do and don’t provide.
They’re not going to protect you and they will turn on you the second they get a letter in the mail or a text from the cops.
But what they DO provide is the ability to register an email address (with a domain that isn’t blocked by most services) without providing any other information. And, from there, you can encrypt it yourself if it is a particularly sensitive message.
As for IP logging? if only there were tools like VPNs and Tor to negate that.
IMO if proton can change their stance and their policies (like their website no longer says emails are anonymous), then I don’t think they are a good private service provider. The only thing going for proton now is that their emails are encrypted and can’t be read by them.
Who knows if a request came from a specific channel of the government that deals with crime, may be they will decrypt the content for them?
No.
The “only thing going for” them is the ability to sign up with zero personal information. You can encrypt your emails with ANY service because it is you exchanging keys ahead of time and doing it locally before you even look up Job on usenet.
Do not trust a third party to encrypt your sensitive communications for you. Do not trust a third party to protect you. Instead, look at what the the third party actually offers you and figure out how you can take advantage of that.
Do not trust a third party to encrypt your sensitive communications for you. Do not trust a third party to protect you. Instead, look at what the the third party actually offers you and figure out how you can take advantage of that.
This is the kind of person that isn’t worried about incognito market black mailing them.
In most cases, they fight tooth and nail and use their own lawyers if necessary
Did they in this case?
So Protonmail was required to log the IP of the user after being ordered to via the proper international Swiss legal channeks, per Swiss/Europol law. And at some point recently, Protonmail thus removed the copy from their frontpage that advertised never tracking IPs.
What the article doesn’t really explain, is what exactly changed about Swiss or euro law? And when? What rules or acts have sprung up that made this possible? Or, was this always something that was possible that has only just now made precedent?
It’s important to hold accountable the named individuals who are harming individual security, safety, and trust in this manner so that they can be prevented from continuing to do so.
Then what makes a privacy oriented service different from others when they can open a backdoor for government? The thing is government wants control and they will change laws for exactly that. What Proton should have done was to eliminate the chance of this happening in the first place. Why are they having a logging mechanism? Why don’t they use RAM only servers or something like that? Privacy services should have the infrastructure and legal power to say “No”, or they are lying.
You need to read the article. It explicitly and IMO satisfactorily answers your excellent questions.
The IP isn’t even that important. They straight gave up that person’s phone number and identified them.
proton is arm in arm with the us government and republicans, so it should be expected that they’ll track and sell you out.
Oh ffs. We have known for years that Proton is just a for profit company like any other. They dont give a fuck about you or your privacy. They never have and they never will.
For profit or FOSS, they can’t ignore the Swiss government. It’s fucking stupid that people put this ridiculous standard on them like they’re able to just tell the Swiss no and face no consequences.
If you were in their position, you would roll over too, and if you claim otherwise you’re just straight up lying.
Please tell me a mail client that doesn’t comply with national laws.
I never said anything about complying with laws, people just interpreted it that way. Of course everyone will comply with local laws or secret government orders that come with threats of imprisonment. I dont know if Proton was required to log this data in the first place, but if they were then this specific situations is not their fault.
The issue with Proton isnt that they follow laws, but that they portray themselves like they are better or more private than others when they are just not. Bigger = worse in the tech world. Whenever too many people are using services of a single company, it becomes an attractive surveillance target.
What im also annoyed about is people being surprised by this and these headlines that make it look like its some sort of betrayal. You should always be worried about your privacy when you put data on a computer that isnt in your physical possession. Proton isnt trustworthy because nobody is trustworthy except yourself.
it’s always disappointing when people all about FOSS and shit suggest Proton to people looking to switch from google. no, don’t do that. use Tuta or self host or ANYTHING other than Proton. it’s such a shit company that does not deserve the praise they receive.
So Tuta would refuse a legal order from their government?
deleted by creator
You recognize that it is absurd to complain about recommendations and then recommend something you know nothing about and refuse to stand behind, right?
The answer is no. They would not refuse a legal order from their own government. And it’s ridiculous people think that.
Tuta are also a for-profit company, aren’t they? Just one that currently has better published positions than most. Use them, but make sure you keep a path to the exit door in view.
Nothing unexpected from a company that openly espouses fascism.
Just switch over to a privacy focused mail service like… uh… like… well shit.
Journalists, activists and even lawyers on the side of activists should always use something like Tails. No matter what companies like Proton promise or what the law in the country they operate in says.
Oh hey I’m not shocked at all by this.
I unironically said this in my group chat, “proton mail is becoming more and more sketchy as being a privacy focused mail service” just like how signal is becoming more sketchy as a instant message service. There are things proton mail does such as logging activity that shouldn’t be the case as a paying customer, and yet here we are. When I request privacy I want it to be private, as in don’t give my data to anyone. it seems for that to happen it must be community driven and decentralized.
Internet becoming more and more unusable
My god, yes. Just yesterday I stopped using duckduckgo since even that has now become increasingly infuriating with AI. I’m using this search engine with no AI it’s based on database queries and to go to a specific website there is a small tab you can use. I love it because now I get to appreciate and use textbooks (whereas i would have chatGPT’d it) because of how limited the queries are and the limited selection. It’s not like google where it dumps the most relevant information at the top, you have to search for it. Anyways, if you were wondering it’s called marginalia search.
Email has been a decentralized federated system from the start, though I’m not aware of any community I’d trust to be a more privacy-respecting host than the available commercial offerings.
Yea I’m trying out tuta it supposidly is end to end encrypted. My hope is that I’ll take a look at it, and see if I like it. It does have RSA encryption so from my preliminary testing it is believable.
