It’s amusing to me that the same folks to deride Chinese car manufacturers because they are somehow cheating by getting support from the government are the same people demanding that the US government artificially protect the US car industry by blocking Chinese imports. The point being that neither side actually objects to government participation in the market. But, one side uses it to make better products and service consumers, and the other does it to protect worse products from market forces.
“A free market is self regulating” until someone makes a better product for less money, I guess.
We tasted some of that self regulating ‘free market’ a while ago. Banks were having huge profits from the housing bubble until the subprime crisis hit, banks went into default, and the losses were picked up by public money.
My profit. Our losses.
My profit. Your losses.
After that it’s “unfair competition” and the state has to intervene
The point both of you deliberately overlook is that China is not participating in a free market anyway. They never played by those rules so there‘s no point in treating them the same way as anyone who does. There is a lot of hypocrisy to be found in politics and economics around the world and China itself is a prime example of that. But a measure to defend yourself from an obvious case of economic warfare is the most understandable thing in history. Your criticism is misplaced and irrational. I mean do you seriously think a monopoly is desirable?
We’ve had of ecocomic warfare already. It was just fine for US companies to hollow out domestic manufacturing so China could build the manufacturing infrastructure that could have been built in the US.
But now that a Chinese company is building things that undercut a US company, you want protections for US billionaires that weren’t afforded to US workers.
American companies only make up a small portion of the US auto industry.
Are you ignoring the whole subsidies thing on purpose? This is not BYD attacking Tesla. This is the Chinese government attacking western industries.
This is BYD selling cars for less than the billionaires you care about want to.
Nothing more.
If an American company badge engineered these cars and sold them in the US at US prices, you would be fine with it just like you’re fine with the economic warfare against the poor that US manufacturers and China have been allies in for decades.
If the Chinese government is losing money on each car they export, soon China will be bankrupt. It only makes sense to buy more China cars at cheap rates and bankrupt their country.
Also, there is no proof of subsidy, it’s just made up Western cope.
There no such thing as a free market. It’s a constant pull between monopolistic forces and government restriction.
And there never will be. Not so long as it is possible to hide information from the consumer, and any sort of barrier to entry exists for market competition to spring up.
And there never will be. Not so long as it is possible to hide information from the consumer, and any sort of barrier to entry exists for market competition to spring up.
My point was it’s literally impossible.
Yup.
There are very niche situations where a free market actually works - situations where there is no hidden information and no barrier to entry, where monopolies can’t arise due to the nature of the specific market. By the nature of these restrictions, nothing of any importance will ever be supplied by these markets.
Yup.
There are very niche situations where a free market actually works - situations where there is no hidden information and no barrier to entry, where monopolies can’t arise due to the nature of the specific market. By the nature of these restrictions, nothing of any importance will ever be supplied by these markets.
China defends its interests and follows what rules it deems advantageous. Just like everyone else does. It may upset you but they’re just better at playing this game than most countries nowadays.
I don’t think anyone is denying Chinese aggressive intent here, just our response. Give us a response where we can get onboard, a response that is more legitimate than their approach, and wecan all be mad at China.
Or think of it this way. We all agree on all the ways China are the bad guys, but our behavior is making them look like the good guys. wtf are we doing?
We should be critical of our manufacturers but we should also not forget China is basically getting its R&D for free by stealing tech from everybody (all do, but some more than others).
@yabbadabaddon @technology Unfortunately this is no longer the case. While China 10-20 years ago definitely bootstrapped itself with corporate espionage and reverse engineering, so did every country including the United States. The China of today produces its own fundamental research at a rate comparable to the US, and given the structural failures of our educational system, will exceed the US over the next 5 years.
Not recognizing that and making excuses is the sign of a country in decline.
A company in Europe has to respect patents. Same for a company in the USA. Not a company in China. Of course this has an impact. Failing to grasp this is at best naive at worst purposefully misleading.
Bullshit. China is the pioneer in battery technology for years now.
Better products? What about geopolitical interests? If China doesn’t need oil then they don’t have to care if the strait of Hormuz is open or closed.
It’s a nice added benefit that they are better for the air, quieter and have more cargo space.
“Struggling” implies the American Auto industry is at least trying to keep pace. But really, they aren’t trying at all. They are content to sit back thinking their current flock of geese will lay golden eggs forever even as more and more of those geese drop dead from old age.
That‘s the main problem in Europe as well. I don‘t mind tariffs on heavily subsidized cars that are designed not to make profit but to destroy our industries. However, even then our manufacturers are in a constant crisis mode and unable to adapt. It‘s really pathetic.
But hey, when the car lobby is dead maybe that means more trains and cycling paths in the long run? Perhaps there‘s an opportunity here.
It’s all thanks to Germany though. They are the ones who have succeeded in scrapping the bill to ban new ICE vehicle sales after 2035
If it has to be forced, then it probably isn’t a good idea.
We’re only just now. Like this year just now, seeing batteries that can be made much cheaper and last much longer (sodium ion) and batteries that will last the actual lifetime of a vehicle (solid state lithiums, allegedly). The cars the past 5 years that have had LifePO4 batts will last decently long. Up until now you’ve been looking at EV’s that cost more, with batteries that will go bad in them that cost huge amounts of money to replace. A 10 year old Tesla with 200,000 miles on it is essentially garbage. No one will pay much for it because it’s about to need a $15,000 battery, and when it fails it’s going to the junk yard. My little ice car has nearly 300,000 miles on it and is old enough to vote. If the engine blows up I could buy a working used one for like $500 and install it myself, or pay somebody else a couple grand to deal with it all for me.
Passenger cars aren’t the end all be all to global warming or the environment, either. They aren’t the main cause. Most countries grid systems couldn’t handle a complete EV swap by 2035. Look at the issues these stupid ai server farms are causing grid systems.
My point is, no one should need to force ev. At this point it will become the better and obvious choice over ice on its own. It isn’t there yet for tons of people or countries.
No one will pay much for it because it’s about to need a $15,000 battery,
That’s pretty rare though. Less than 5% of EVs need a battery replacement after 10 years (including those with defective batteries), and modern EV batteries should last at least 20 years, after which they’re still estimated to have around 65-70% capacity.
That’s not pretty rare, and with lithium batteries it’s also a guaranteed capacity loss, even if there’s not many power cycles to them. Age is a huge determinate factor in capacity and power loss in lithium batteries. The capacity loss also isn’t on a straight line scale. It increases with time. One or two percent a year loss for the first 5 years and then it will get bigger and bigger. Unlike an ice vehicle that’s kept in a garage and taken care of that can got well over 200,000 miles almost regardless of age, an EV currently can’t do that. They’re terrible in the 2nd and third hand market. A 20 year old EV will be useless.
If it has to be forced, then it probably isn’t a good idea
It’s not like people want to do that for shits and giggles.
A different perspective is the market shift is inevitable. We can work with it to make the transition smooth, to help existing manufacturers retool, to more quickly build out the necessary infrastructure, ensuring least disruption and existing manufacturers are still in business. Or we can let the market be disrupted by new companies predominantly in other countries. The transition will be longer and rougher as jobs are lost, infrastructure lags, existing manufacturers cling to old technology, until eventually that entire industrial base collapses
Or of course there’s the perspective of acknowledging long term climate trends and understand the responsibility to our children, our society, our descendants, to make small steps to mitigate the harm we do them
Never understood why EVs aren’t made with standardized hot swappable cells. Would solve the range problem and the wear problem.
There was at least one company several years ago that was trying. Go to a place and pay a fee, kind of like how you’d swap out a propane gas bbq grill tank. They’d forklift out the empty batt and forklift in the charged one, was their game plan.
The tech is all too knew for standardization. Too many chemistries and voltages and places to figure out where to stick batteries.
If what catl is producing right now is correct and true, we should be all set in the coming future. Supposed sodium batteries at 175wh per kilogram and over 10,000 charge cycles and very fast charging. Great for sub 300 mile range small econo vehicles. Then the solid state lithiums they’re working on are also supposed to have a high amount of charge cycles and energy densities close to 500wh\kg, which will give plenty of range and make the cars lighter, which is really needed to ease up on suspension and efficiency and tread wear.
Not practical, no one wants it.
People are already bitching and moaning about how hard it is to build out charging, when it’s based on existing electric system that’s is already everywhere. You really think it’s at all practical to build out everywhere a network of station with a large inventory of one ton batteries to fit every age of every vehicle in every location no matter how rural and heavy automated equipment to maneuver them? You want to hold battery technology stagnant to support this? You want to lose the efficiency and reliability benefits of structural batteries.
The reality is current batteries already last longer than the first owner keeps a vehicle and newer ones easily exceed lifespan of ice vehicles. The reality is charging is already more convenient that battery swapping. The reality is building out chargers is much easier than any other infrastructure
You really think it’s at all practical to build out everywhere a network of station
It works with propane tanks.
one ton batteries to fit every age of every vehicle in every location no matter how rural and heavy automated equipment to maneuver them?
That’s where standardization comes in. All vehicles would use the same cells, or maybe a couple sizes depending on use case. No reason they have to way a ton either a car could have multiple cells sized for a person to be able to handle themselves. This would also allow you to “top up” if they can get the cells to drain sequentially.
You want to hold battery technology stagnant to support this? You want to lose the efficiency and reliability benefits of structural batteries.
As long as new technology connects to the old connections then they can change whatever they want inside the cells. That’s how batteries have been for pretty much the entire history of batteries. And no I don’t want to lose anything. I was merely asking a question.
The reality is current batteries already last longer than the first owner keeps a vehicle and newer ones easily exceed lifespan of ice vehicles.
I’d very much like to know what the actual numbers are for “how long the first owner keeps a vehicle” and the “lifespan of ice vehicles”. I’ve had my car for 15 years and I’m the first owner. My dad had a truck that’s coming up on 40 and is still kicking. EVs haven’t even been around long enough to prove that
Everyone has different definition of lifetime and very few keep theirs 40 years
I personally buy new and keep it for its lifetime, as defined by “needing more work than its value “. That has worked out to be 12-15 years for ICE cars. For an EV I’m reasonably confident the battery will last longer than I own the vehicle and it will still have some amount of resale value based on batteries degrade rather than die
Also I’ve seen quite a few articles like
Tesla is ahead there too. Its average EV lifespan is 20.3 years, whereas the average electric vehicle has a lifespan of 18.4 years. By comparison, the average gas-powered vehicle’s lifespan is 18.7 years.
grid systems couldn’t handle a complete EV swap by 2035. Look at the issues these stupid ai server farms
While we’re so stagnant it would be a challenge, do you not see the difference between
- a known, gradual transition with a 20 year timeframe (10 to end ice production + 10 for most existing to age out)
- an immediate demand for for large amounts of power for a bubble technology that didn’t exist a couple years ago
You can plan for a well known and couple decades timeframe, or the failure is yours. It’s harder to plan for surprises
We’re (the world) is currently massively back ordered on transformers by many years and no one is ramping up production. Let alone the rest of the infrastructure, or what people in apartments and others with no garages are set to do. Were too far out to solve those problems. Even 20 years out.
Maybe, but there’s a lot more chance to solve it 20 years out
More importantly, generating and transmitting more power is not the only option. It is for ai since a datacenter needs huge power continuously. However EVs need much smaller amounts of power intermittently. If I plug in overnight, I don’t care when it charges or how fast as long as it’s done by morning. Not everyone does that at the same time, and we ought to be able to create a “smart” solution to coordinate this and minimize the impact
EV potentially could coordinate with the grid so we don’t need much or any additional power but just use it at different times
You still have to look at the millions of people with no garages, that park on streets and apartment parking lots, and who won’t have means to charge outside of going and charging at fast charge stations away from where they live. These will all take massive amounts of high current power at peak times, not overnight. The people in their single family houses with their double car garages won’t be an issue for overnight charging. It will be an issue for all the others. Imagine places like Kansas city or Chicago or LA.
Isn’t profit supposed to bring prices down?
Looks like crapitalists are scared to shit of free market competition.
China has the battery production technologies and capabilities, the electric motor production, an unbelievable economy of scale, and insane levels of automation in their EV Factories, those are the main reasons behind their pricing and not “subsidies to destroy our industries”. Most subsidies, AFAIK, were tax cuts to purchases in China.
Tesla was definitely trying…
Ah Tesla… I too attempt to accomplish tasks by being a leader and going completely insane.
People only prefer BYD to Cybertrucks because the government is not adding ketamine to drinking water.
The Teslas that are made in China are noticeably higher quality than the ones made in the USA. Fewer panel gaps and better fit and finish.
The only reason Teslas are decent quality is because the majority of them are made in China. Over 50% of Teslas are made in China, using over 90% local (Chinese) parts.
American Auto Industry Struggles to Keep Pace
You mean lobbies the government to ban Chinese EVs, because they have no means of competing whatsoever? Free market for me, but not for thee.
Has always been this way. Back in the late 70/early 80s, Harley couldn’t compete with the Japanese bikes so they lobbied to daddy fed to make sure all the foreign bikes got tarriffed out of existence over 700cc. So the Japanese said “hold my soju” and made 699cc motorcycles that still made more power than the gargantuan Harley bikes of the time. USA has always tried to give US based companies a leg up over objectively superior products. Our tax dollars are why there are any American car companies left, sure Ford didn’t get a direct bail out but we use them for police and other service vehicles across the country which has helped keep them afloat. Plus obviously Chrysler and GM taking govt bailouts and still flailing desperately while making trash vehicles and wondering why they don’t sell. The American auto industry doesn’t struggle to keep pace, it has NEVER caught up to or even compared to the rest of the world. They have always been 30+ years behind any European or Asian vehicle.
So the Japanese said “hold my sake”
FTFY. Soju is Korean.
Thank you🙏believe it or not I’ve been to korea before so I should know that… Been many years.
There was a while when the US was on top, revolutionizing automotive manufacturing. Ford’s Model T and later Model A sold like crazy.
Not like other countries arent doing the literal same.
But we also dont scream into the world that we are “LaNd oF tHe FrEe”
It’s not struggling to keep pace. It’s not trying to keep pace.
Someone should tell them “struggle to keep pace” is different “abandoning the attempt”
American Auto Industry Struggles to Keep Pace
Them being end up second place isn’t new, as these makers can’t help but throw in too many features but cut out the quality or improve efficiency, such as being unable to match the fuel efficiency of non-US compact cars more than 50 years ago.
The Chinese models have more features, more technology, and more connectivity.
Exactly what I don’t want from a car. I want fewer features implemented better, higher build quality, and zero connectivity.
The only feature I want is for it to go from A to B for 150kkm without needing major repairs.
Me neither. Please give me as little as possible.
644 mile range? But what if I need to drive 650 miles once in a decade? Electric cars are just a stoopid fad.
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The worst part is once the batteries run out you have to replace the car. Who can afford a new car every 650 miles!?
In unrelated news, Chinese social credit is a deeply misunderstood topic in western culture. It apparently does more to prevent corruption than it does to aid corruption, according to one independent reporter found via my YouTube algorithm. https://youtu.be/iXrx9ryVaes
I’m starting the get the feeling that feeling strongly about almost anything is a pretty strong indicator that I’ve been propagandized. How do we live like this?
Interesting. I read an article about it.
https://www.tomorrow.city/social-credit-systems/
I mean to me this reeks of some pretty extreme fascism. Without a genuine mechanism to challenge the system and considering how the government can and will place you on a black list for not towing the party line it is about as dystopian as you get.
Fascism up in your daily business claiming to produce better metrics according to them is not something I could agree to.
I already hate the existing US credit scoring system and the numerous catch 22’s it has. While bringing this system under the regulation of government and allowing redressability sounds promising, I don’t think this is really what China is providing.
Those claims are put under scrutiny in the video I linked. I’ll have to read the article though, as I’m going off your comment.
It claims you can’t get blacklisted for not towing the party line. You can get blacklisted for not paying fines that you owe. To me, it sounds equivalent to being refused plane fair if you’ve got an unpaid traffic violation from a year ago.
The video even calls out a case where an MMA fighter was blacklisted after participating in Hong Kong protests. But claims the story is misrepresented, and the fighter was actually blacklisted for failure pay $60k after being found liable for defamation against another MMA fighter in a civil suit.
Edit: To be completely frank, I watched that video and thought to myself: such a system probably restricts the actions of the rich a lot more than it does your average Joe. Not sure if I’d mind it, really… Imagine if Alex Jones couldn’t get on a plane right now, given he hasn’t paid the victims of his slander yet?
I will watch the video later. Thanks for linking it.
In unrelated news, Chinese social credit is a deeply misunderstood topic in western culture. It apparently does more to prevent corruption than it does to aid corruption, according to one independent reporter found via my YouTube algorithm. https://youtu.be/iXrx9ryVaes
I’m starting the get the feeling that feeling strongly about almost anything is a pretty strong indicator that I’ve been propagandized. How do we live like this?
But but but…China bad!! Obviously China isn’t perfect but they definitely get some things right.
And yes, propaganda works on everybody
I can’t tell if you’re joking or not
I can’t tell if you’re joking or not.
I can’t either. I’m fucking hysterical, and not the good kind involving strong stimulants with no sleep.
They were joking.
In unrelated news, check this out: https://youtu.be/-TlYoVsW5ko
The US auto industry and market abandoned fuel efficient vehicles and continue to fail to improve BEV’s and the infrastructure to support them.
The American Auto Industry has been struggling to keep pace since the 80s lmao
They only exist because they threw their money at congress to make horsecrap legislation that bans competition.
They even assassinated sedans with EPA laws that stimulates everyone to make SUVs lol.
The only thing they can do is lobby, build bigger, expliot loopholes and maximize their margins.
They need to hire a design studio, it’s really ugly
I dig it.
you sure?
There are cars that aren’t?
Spyware on wheels.
Spyware on wheels.
Tesla wants a word.
