Love this. I don’t know much about risc-v but I’d love to see it disrupt the market a bit.
Sadly this is just a dev kit. It has soldered memory and only works with emmc storage
RISC-V still has a ways to go before it usable for much.
Its usable for much now… Just not as a daily driver laptop. It is good for embedded applications now, but not quire there for phone or laptop use. Maybe one day.
Google is certainly planning on it being viable.
They’ve been merging RISC-V support in Android and have documented the minimum extensions over the base ISA that must be implemented for Android certification
This board also has soldered memory and uses MicroSD cards and eMMC for storage, both of which are limitations of the processor.
Ah, yeah, hard no from me dog. Can we get one of the new Snapdragons tho? Please?
Qualcomm and Broadcom are the two biggest reasons you don’t own your devices any more. That is the last option anyone that cares about ownership should care about. You should expect an orphaned kernel just like all their other mobile garbage. Qualcomm is like the Satan of hardware manufacturers. The world would be a much better place if Qualcomm and Broadcom were not in it at all.
What did they do ? I thought all processor are following standards hence I am running Linux on my Intel or AMD CPU.
All their hardware documentation is locked under NDA nothing is publicly available about the hardware at the hardware registers level.
For instance, the base Android system AOSP is designed to use Linux kernels that are prepackaged by Google. These kernels are well documented specifically for manufacturers to add their hardware support binary modules at the last possible moment in binary form. These modules are what makes the specific hardware work. No one can update the kernel on the device without the source code for these modules. As the software ecosystem evolves, the ancient orphaned kernel creates more and more problems. This is the only reason you must buy new devices constantly. If the hardware remained undocumented publicly while just the source code for modules present on the device was merged with the kernel, the device would be supported for decades. If the hardware was documented publicly, we would write our own driver modules and have a device that is supported for decades.
This system is about like selling you a car that can only use gas that was refined prior to your purchase of the vehicle. That would be the same level of hardware theft.
The primary reason governments won’t care or make effective laws against orphaned kernels is because the bleeding edge chip foundries are the primary driver of the present economy. This is the most expensive commercial endeavor in all of human history. It is largely funded by these devices and the depreciation scheme.
That is both sides of the coin, but it is done by stealing ownership from you. Individual autonomy is our most expensive resource. It can only be bought with blood and revolutions. This is the primary driver of the dystopian neofeudalism of the present world. It is the catalyst that fed the sharks that have privateered (legal piracy) healthcare, home ownership, work-life balance, and democracy. It is the spark of a new wave of authoritarianism.
Before the Google “free” internet (ownership over your digital person to exploit and manipulate), all x86 systems were fully documented publicly. The primary reason AMD exists is because we (the people) were so distrusting over these corporations stealing and manipulating that governments, militaries, and large corporations required second sourcing of chips before purchasing with public funds. We knew that products as a service - is a criminal extortion scam, way back then. AMD was the second source for Intel and produced the x86 chips under license. It was only after that when they recreated an instructions compatible alternative from scratch. There was a big legal case where Intel tried to claim copyright over their instruction set, but they lost. This created AMD. Since 2012, both Intel and AMD have proprietary code. This is primarily because the original 8086 patents expired. Most of the hardware could be produced anywhere after that. In practice there are only Intel, TSMC, and Samsung on bleeding edge fab nodes. Bleeding edge is all that matters. The price is extraordinary to bring one online. The tech it requires is only made once for a short while. The cutting edge devices are what pays for the enormous investment, but once the fab is paid for, the cost to continue running one is relatively low. The number of fabs within a node is carefully decided to try and accommodate trailing edge node demand. No new trailing edge nodes are viable to reproduce. There is no store to buy fab node hardware. As soon as all of a node’s hardware is built by ASML, they start building the next node.
But if x86 has proprietary, why is it different than Qualcomm/Broadcom - no one asked. The proprietary parts are of some concern. There is an entire undocumented operating system running in the background of your hardware. That’s the most concerning. The primary thing that is proprietary is the microcode. This is basically the power cycling phase of the chip, like the order that things are given power, and the instruction set that is available. Like how there are not actual chips designed for most consumer hardware. The dies are classed by quality and functionality and sorted to create the various products we see. Your slower speed laptop chip might be the same as a desktop variant that didn’t perform at the required speed, power is connected differently, and it becomes a laptop chip.
When it comes to trending hardware, never fall for the Apple trap. They design nice stuff, but on the back end, Apple always uses junky hardware, and excellent in house software to make up the performance gap. They are a hype machine. The only architecture that Apple has used and hasn’t abandoned because it went defunct is x86. They used MOS in the beginning. The 6502 was absolute trash compared to the other available processors. It used a pipeline trick to hack twice the actual clock speed because they couldn’t fab competitive quality chips. They were just dirt cheap compared to the competition. Then it was Motorola. Then Power PC. All of these are now irrelevant. The British group that started Acorn sold the company right after RISC-V passed the major hurtle of getting past Berkeley’s ownership grasp. It is a slow moving train, like all hardware, but ARM’s days are numbered. RISC-V does the same fundamental thing without the royalty. There is a ton of hype because ARM is cheap and everyone is trying to grab the last treasure chests they can off the slow sinking ship. In 10 years it will be dead in all but old legacy device applications. RISC-V is not a guarantee of a less proprietary hardware future, but ARM is one of the primary cornerstones blocking end user ownership. They are enablers for thieves; the ones opening your front door to let the others inside. Even the beloved raspberry pi is a proprietary market manipulation and control scheme. It is not actually open source at the registers level and it is priced to prevent the scale viability of a truly open source and documented alternative. The chips are from a failed cable TV tuner box, and they are only made in a trailing edge fab when the fab has no other paid work. They are barely above cost and a tax write off, thus the “foundation” and dot org despite selling commercial products.
This is not written by ChatGPT right?
Edit: ok don’t kill me, it was so long :/
Doubt it, after reading it myself it is nowhere as calculated and artificial as ChatGPT output
It is a pretty good read though.
I doubt it, there are some grammar mistakes in there I think. At least, it doesn’t look like the typical ChatGPT writing style.
Not the case with ARM processors sadly, IMO they’re a bit of a mess from that perspective. Proprietary blobs for hardware, unusual kernel hacks for some devices, and no device tree support so you can’t just boot any image on any device. I think Windows for ARM encouraged some standardization in that regard, but for the most part looking at Android devices it’s still very much the wild west.
This is one of the many reasons why Raspberry Pi ARM boards remain popular for the time being, despite there being so many other cheap alternatives available: they actually keep supporting their old boards & ensure hardware on their boards works from the get-go.
There are also some rare cases where Raspberry Pi rewrite open source implementations of Broadcom’s proprietary blob drivers, in one instance for the built in CSI (optional camera)
Wasn’t there a bounty out like 10 years ago for writing an open source alternative to the video drivers? I remember reading about that.
Essentially no processors follow a standard. There are some that have become a de facto standard and had both backwards compatibility and clones produced like x86. But it is certainly not an open standard, and many lawsuits have been filed to limit the ability of other companies to produce compatible replacement chips.
RISC-V is an attempt to make an open instruction set that any manufacturer can make a compatible chip for, and any software developer can code for.
They make a bunch of the other chips that go into computer devices, and from what I understand it’s binary blob or nothing for a lot of it?
I work with SoC suppliers, including Qualcomm and can confirm; you need to sign an NDA to get a highly patched old orphaned kernel, often with drivers that are provided only as precompiled binaries, preventing you updating the kernel yourself.
If you want that source code, you need to also pay a lot of money yearly to be a Qualcomm partner and even then you still might not have access to the sources for all the binaries you use. Even when you do get the sources, don’t expect them to be updated for new kernel compatibility; you’ve gotta do that yourself.
Many other manufacturers do this as well, but few are as bad. The environment is getting better, but it seems to be a feature that many large manufacturers feel they can live without.
Usually you can get the kernel source for Qualcomm at least, MediaTek tho…
This is a dev kit. This is not for normal people to use. RISC-V is not there yet, but this is a good first step.
That doesn’t bother me too much.
With the CPU being that slow, I don’t think you’ll really need a proper SSD. (And the CPU doesn’t have the required PCIe interfaces anyway).
They probably could’ve added socketed RAM, but based on the photo, the main board looks quite full and messy with random chips (likely needed to work around CPU limitations), so it probably wasn’t a high priority.
I’m interested in the cooling requirements and battery life.
I’m not interested in ARM CPUs with all their weird proprietary stuff.
The mainboard looks cluttered due to the verbose silkscreening, it doesn’t actually look that complex compared to the other mainboards.
At the point you want to upgrade this chip swapping out the entire SOC including the RAM is likely a better option.
Could someone eli5 risc-v and why the fuss?
RISC-V (pronounced risk five), is a Free open-source Instruction Set Architecture (ISA). Other well established ISA like x86, amd64 (Intel and AMD) and ARM, are proprietary and therefore, one must pay every expensive licenses to design and build a processor using these architectures. You don’t need to pay a license to build a RISC-V processor, you only need to follow the specifications. That doesn’t mean the CPU design is also free, no, they stay very much the closed property of the designer, but RISC-V represents non the less, a very big step towards more transparency and technology freedom.
I pity the five year old who has to read this.
I’m a grown up though so thank you for the explanation.
Costs less
Yes, I admit it’s still a pretty complex explanation. I gave it my best shot :)
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RISC-V is like LEGO, where you can put together pieces to make whatever you want. Nobody can tell you what you can or can’t make, you can be as creative as you want. Oh, and there’s motors and stuff too.
ARM is like Hotwheels, there are lots of cars, but you can’t make your own. You can get a bit creative making tracks, but that’s about it.
AMD and Intel are like RC cars, they’re really fun, but they use a lot of batteries and you can’t really customize them. Oh, and they’re expensive, so you only get one.
Each is cool, but with LEGO, you can do everything the others do, and more. Like LEGO, RISC-V can be slow to work with, especially if you don’t have the pieces you want, but the more people that use it, the better it’ll get and the more pieces you can get. And if you have a 3D printer, you can make your own pieces and share them with others.
“you” as in person with required skills, resources and access to a chip fabrication facility. For many others they can just buy something designed and produced by others, or play around a bit on FPGAs.
We will also see how much variation with RISC-V will actually happen, because if every processor is a unique piece of engineering, it is really hard to write software, that works on every one.
Even with ARM there are arguable too many designs out there, which currently take a lot of effort to integrate.
Sure, and there are more people with that access than just AMD, ARM, NVIDIA, and Intel.
If game devs supported RISC-V, Valve could’ve made the Steam Deck without having to get AMD’s help, which means they would’ve had more options to keep prices down while meeting their performance goals. Likewise for server vendors, phone manufacturers, etc, who currently need to buy from ARM (and fab themselves) or AMD/Intel.
And that’s why I mentioned 3D printing. Making custom 3D models of LEGO pieces is out of reach for many (most?) and even owning a 3D printer is out of reach for many. I have one, but I’ve only built a handful of things because it’s time consuming.
As it gets more software support, we should see a lot more variety in RISC-V chips. We’re not there yet, but we should be excited because it’s starting to get traction, and the future looks bright.
This is a great answer.
Not an eli5 because I’m still not caught up on it but if my memory serves, RISC-V is an open source architecture for processors, basically like amd64 or arm64, actually I’m pretty sure ARM’s chips are RISC-V derivatives.
ARM and RISC-V are entirely different in that neither one is based on the other, but what they have in common is that they’re both RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computing) architectures. RISC is what makes ARM CPUs (in your phone, etc) so efficient and hopefully RISC-V will get there too.
x86 by comparison is Complex Instruction Set Computing, which allows for more performance in some cases, but isn’t as efficient.
The original debate from the 80s that defined what RISC and CISC mean has already been settled and neither of those categories really apply anymore. Today all high performance CPUs are superscalar, use microcode, reorder instructions, have variable width instructions, vector instructions, etc. These are exactly the bits of complexity RISC was supposed to avoid in order to achieve higher clock speeds and therefore better performance. The microcode used in modern CPUs is very RISC like, and the instruction sets of ARM64/RISC-V and their extensions would have likely been called CISC in the 80s. All that to say the whole RISC vs CISC thing doesn’t really apply anymore and neither does it explain any differences between x86 and ARM. There are differences and they do matter, but by an large it’s not due to RISC vs CISC.
As for an example: if we compare the M1 and the 7840u (similar CPUs on a similar process node, one arm64 the other AMD64), the 7840u beats the M1 in performance per watt and outright performance. See https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-amd_ryzen_7_7840u-vs-apple_m1. Though the M1 has substantially better battery life than any 7840u laptop, which very clearly has nothing to do with performance per watt but rather design elements adjacent to the CPU.
In conclusion the major benefit of ARM and RISC-V really has very little to do with the ISA itself, but their more open nature allows manufacturers to build products that AMD and Intel can’t or don’t. CISC-V would be just as exciting.
Thank you so much for this information.
If you still have commenting motivation, what are the top 5 differences between x86 and ARM?
Up until your post I had thought it exactly was the size of the instruction set with x86 having lots of very specific multi-step-in-a-single instruction as well as crufty instruction for backwards compatibility (like MPSADBW).
You can pay ARM to build and sell cores, you can’t do that for x86.
ARM is load-store and has a relaxed ordering. Whereas x86 has instructions that can read straight from memory, and has Total Store Ordering. ARM also is fixed instruction width, where x86/AMD64 is variable instruction width. Outside of that the difference is mostly licensing.
The CISC vs RISC thing is dead. Also modern ARM ISAs aren’t even RISC anymore even if that’s what they started out as. People have no idea what’s going on with modern technology.
X86 can actually be quite low power (see LPE cores and Intel Atom). The producers of x86 don’t specialize in that though, unlike a lot of RISC-V and ARM producers. It’s not that it’s impossible, just that it isn’t typically done that way.
So is Reduced Instruction Set like in the old assembly days where you couldn’t do multiplication, as there wasn’t a command for it, so you had to do multiple loops of addition?
Right concept, except you’re off in scale. A MULT instruction would exist in both RISC and CISC processors.
The big difference is that CISC tries to provide instructions to perform much more sophisticated subroutines. This video is a fun look at some of the most absurd ones, to give you an idea.
Nah, the Complex instructions are ridiculously complex and the Reduced ones can still do a lot of stuff.
RISC-V is modular, so multiplication is optional but probably everything will support it.
ARM = Advanced RISC Machine
However, RISC-V is specific type of RISC and ARM is not a derivative of RISC-V but of RISC.
ARM = Advanced RISC Machine
Originally Acorn RISC Machine before that
To clarify for those that might not understand that explanation, RISC is just a type of instruction set, x86 is CISC, but arm and RISC-V are RISC
Yup. In general:
- CISC - complex instruction set - you’ll get really exotic operations, like PMADDWD (multiply numbers, then add 16-bit chunks) or the SSE 4.2 string compare instructions
- RISC - reduced instruction set - instead of an instruction for everything, RISC requires users to combine instructions, and specialialized extensions are fairly rare
Modern CISC CPUs often (usually? Always?) have a RISC design behind the CISC interface, it just translates CISC -> RISC for processing. RISC CPUs tend to have more user-accessible cores, so the user/OS handles sending instructions. CISC can be faster for complex operations since you have fewer round-trips to the CPU, whereas RISC can handle more instructions simultaneously due to more cores, so big, diverse workloads may see better throughput. Basically, it’s the old argument of bandwidth vs latency.
Except modern ARM chips are actually CISC too. Also microcode isn’t strictly RISC either. It’s a lot more complex than you are thinking.
There are some RISC characteristics ARM has kept like load-store architecture and fixed width instructions. However it’s actually more complex in terms of capabilities and instructions than pretty much all earlier CISC systems, as early CISC systems did not have vector units and instructions for example.
Yeah, they’ve gotten a bit bloated, but ARM is still a lot simpler than x86. That’s why ARM is usually higher core count, because they don’t have as many specialized circuits. That’s good for some use cases (servers, low power devices, etc), and generally bad for others (single app uses like gaming and productivity), though Apple is trying to bridge that gap.
But yeah, ARM and x86 are a lot more similar today than they were 10 years ago. There’s still a distinct difference though, but RISC-V is a lot more RISC than ARM.
Arm’s chips are not RISC-V derivatives.
Yup, they’re RISC chips (few instructions), but RISC-V is a separate product line.
It’s not just a separate product line. It’s a different architecture. Not made by the same companies either, so ARM aren’t involved at all. It’s actually a competitor to ARM64.
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Managers at big companies: “No we will not buy any products that have ‘Risc’ in them…if someone gets hacked we’ll take all the blame!”
That makes sense. Management types are usually pretty RISC-averse
I have to admit you made me chuckle
As if managers even know what RISC-V is
I would say that IBM is a rather large company and I’m pretty sure they’ve been producing RISCs for like 30+ years.
This board has the StarFive JH7110 SoC. That processor has previously been in very low power single board computers like StarFive VisionFive 2 (2022) and Milk-V Mars (2023), a Raspberry Pi clone that can be bought for as low as $40. Its storage limitations (SD/eMMC rather than NVMe) show how much this isn’t meant for laptop use.
Very underpowered for a laptop too, even when considering this is intended for developers and doesn’t need to be remotely performance competitive. Consider that this has just 4 RV64GC cores, the cheapest Intel board options Framework offers are 12 cores (4P+8E), and any modern RISC-V core is far simpler with less area than even an Intel E core. These cores also lack the RISC-V vector instructions extension.
Pine64 also has the Star64 as will, in 4GB and 8GB for $70 and $90 respectively. They’re not exactly hard to find.
If I was developing for RISC-V, I’d buy one of those SBCs, not a Framework laptop. But it’s cool that it exists, I suppose.
When the first person opens their new laptop:
“RISC architecture is going to change everything”
Slow down there, Zerocool
That movie was ahead of its time in so many ways
Great, I’d be glad if they would consider shipping to more countries as well with localized keyboards
I mean, they at least offer a blank + clear ANSI and blank + clear ISO keyboard options along side their 14 other keyboard formats.
Any information on the GPU they are pairing with it?
Does anyone know if it’s possible to use a regular AMD or Nvidia GPU with it?
This is not for someone to daily drive. You’ll probably get better performance duct taping and raspberry pi to Bluetooth keyboard and 7 inch pi display.
haha, that doesn’t answer the question at all. But I appreciate you.
It does actually.
Edit: It’s an article about how a company is going to assist in providing RISC 5 dev boards to framework. It’s not about a consumer ready product with a dedicated GPU.
The GPU inside the processor/soc has the following specifications:
- Imagination BXE-4-32 GPU with support for OpenCL 1.2, OpenGL ES 3.2, Vulkan 1.2
- Video Decoder – H.265, H.264 4K @ 60fps or 1080p @ 30fps, MJPEG
- Video Encoder – H.265/HEVC Encoder, 1080p @ 30fps
I don’t think you’ll be able to use a separate/external GPU with it. Thunderbolt support is highly unlikely and that processor has only 1 or 2 PCIe lanes (depending how USB is connected), which is likely already used for WiFi.
The processor it’s using is linked in the article: https://www.cnx-software.com/2022/08/29/starfive-jh7110-risc-v-processor-specifications/
It’s a system-on-chip (SoC) design with an embedded GPU, the Imagination BXE-4-32, which appears to be designed mainly for smart TVs and set-top boxes.
The SoC itself only has two PCIe 2.0 lanes on separate interfaces so you can’t use both for the same device, and one is shared with the USB 3.0 interface.
That’s not even enough bandwidth to drive an entry-level notebook GPU from over a decade ago. Seriously: the GeForce GT 520M, launched January 2011, wants a full PCIe 2.0 x16 interface. Same with the Raedeon HD 6330M. You could probably get away with just 8 lanes if you had to, but not only one.
The other commenter wasn’t kidding by saying you could get more power out of a Raspberry Pi 4. It’s even mentioned in the article.
Seriously: the GeForce GT 520M, launched January 2011, wants a full PCIe 2.0 x16 interface. Same with the Raedeon HD 6330M. You could probably get away with just 8 lanes if you had to, but not only one.
Connecting a GPU with just one PCIe lane isn’t the biggest problem. You’ll just slow down data exchange between the CPU and GPU (mostly loading textures and vertex positions).
If your game mostly relies on shaders and renders lots of rather static stuff, you’ll mostly just get longer loading times but FPS shouldn’t suffer too much.
Given how much modern games stream data in and out of VRAM, I think it would actually be quite a significant issue. Although, for modern games the 520M would probably be below minimum requirements anyway. It was just to illustrate my point.
It would be obviously “an issue” and drastically reduce performance in many cases, but compared to the buildin igpu, you’d probably still be able to get a much better performance for lots of applications.
That’s great but they need to fix their hinges first.
They did, almost immediately after it became a known issue.
They already have, and they offer optional ones that take more force to move.
There are 2 updated hinges they sell.
https://frame.work/products/display-hinge-kit?v=FRANFB0001
Unless you’re talking about something else
Nope those were it. And it’s still broken after getting replaced once. It’s unfortunate, I wanted a better laptop, not a desktop in all but name.
They have, the hinges of my Framework 13 AMD model from September 2023 are completely fine.
Didn’t they in the new models?
Just asking.
