Four months ago, we asked Are LLMs making Stack Overflow irrelevant? Data at the time suggested that the answer is likely “yes:”
I had a decently awarded account on SO because I joined it in 2012. I asked and answered questions. For the first few years it was fucking awesome as a professional developer. Then it’s popularity on google search results ended up making it too well known and the comment quality dropped substantially. Then the fucking powerusers popped up and started flagging almost everye one my questions as duplicates while pointing to unrelated questions. The last I really used SO was around 2017. I got too fed up to participate in the platform because when I spent the time to make a well formed question, it would just got shut down and my time wasted.
Had the same experience, almost exactly.
Four months ago, we asked Are LLMs making Stack Overflow irrelevant?
“That’s a stupid question, marked as solved.”
marked as duplicate, see <other question from 2005, before LLMs were invented>
Make no mistake. LLMs aren’t killing stackoverflow. LLMs just arrived to finish it off. The stuff that was killing it are the regular posters there, and their passive aggressive bullshit
Question closed as off-topic.
Question closed as off-topic.
Removed as duplicate of #264826376: “Question closed as duplicate.”
Sometimes my jokes need explaining...
I’m pointing out that questions on SO too often get closed as duplicates of adjacent (but distinctly different) questions, and I did so in the most confusing, recursive way possible.
Nothing passive about them it was just regular aggressive. Made my programming coursework so much worse. Indian guys on YouTube however, now those guys were helpful!
It’s not dead until I stop getting 10 year old outdated answers in my searches!
Ever ask a question on SO? I tell my students to search there but never, ever ask a question. The unmitigated hostility is not what new developers need or deserve. ChatGPT won’t humiliate you for asking a question that someone else has already asked.
If LLMs just copied stack overflow they’d respond to every question with “Closed as duplicate. Question already answered.”
and link a slightly similar question, which’s answers can’t be used in your case, because of the small difference. also, it’s outdated since four years.
or 13 in case of python questions, and they are about python2
Problem being that someone else asked the question 10 years ago and the answer is now irrelevant due to version changes. People with high scores are just early adopters who answered all of the easy questions. Hostile users generally can’t understand the question. The issue with llms answering your question is that they are going to be stuck in the current time period. In the future their answers will also be irrelevant due to version changes.
I mean that is already a problem, if you ask a question you have to be ready for the answer to be a mismatch of version conflicts.
But that is ok. ChatGPT is a tool that can either help you or hurt you. I like to think of it like a power hammer. If you are doing a roofing job, it can help you get things done faster compared to a manual hammer, but you still need to know how to build a roof to get started.
ChatGPT is great at helping you organize your thoughts or finding an answer to some error message buried in some log file, but you still need to know what questions to ask and you need to be ready for it to give you a stupid answer and how to get around that.
Earlier today I googled how to toggle full screen in dosbox-x and the AI-generated answer said to use alt+enter. Tried it and it didn’t work, so I look in the documentation and it turns out that they changed it to F12+f a while ago (probably to avoid interfering with actual dos input).
This is definitely already a problem.
ChatGPT won’t humiliate you for asking a question that someone else has already asked.
I don’t know, being told what a good question that was and what a good boy I am everytime I ask a stupid question feels pretty humiliating.
(Still better than SO)
That’s a pretty recent development, isn’t it? I remember ChatGPT being a lot more matter of factly earlier on.
Yep, old ChatGPT was much more blunt and factual.
Don’t really like the recent trend of every LLM talking to me like I’m in kindergarten.
I forget where I heard the quote, but:
Stack Overflow is a great place to find answers. Stack Overflow is a terrible place to ask questions.
Their moderation approach is a big part of why it’s a great place to search for answers.
I see this hot take often, and it isn’t entirely without merit, but it is mitigated by moderation; in some Stack communities better than others. I’ve been an active member for many years, and in my view it goes like this.
If you contribute a question without reading the rules and How to Ask a Good Question, you don’t provide minimal reproducible steps with code, post images of code, etc. you may get flamed out of town. And that may feel bad and it may be mean if the questioner didn’t know to read those. But they are there for you.
If, however, you ask a thoughtful question, give examples, show what you’ve tried, etc. you definitely can get quality, courteous help.
Doesn’t change that video killed the radio star here. The show is over.
Beginners are the least likely to ask thoughtful questions. We include slides in lectures about how to ask a question, but when there’s an assignment deadline and you’re inexperienced, it’s more likely you’re going to just blurt out “help me!” rather than provide a detailed explanation that doesn’t require repeated prompting. It takes time to learn how to work through an issue yourself before asking. Students are often facing time pressure and that can drive bad behavior. Correcting them is important, just don’t do it in a way that crushes their spirit.
For me, strict rules are what make this website useful. No threads named “help me” is why I like reading it.
For newcomers there is https://stackoverflow.com/staging-ground
Even for non newcomers, having threads marked as duplicates for problems introduced by version changes that aren’t considered in the original question/answers is a major issue.
Not terribly surprising, Google would often direct me to StackOverflow threads as I was googling for an answer to a question. And as often as not, either the question was closed; or, instead of anyone providing an answer, the commenters would spiral off into questioning everything about the original question asker’s life choices. While I do get the whole XY Problem, this sort of thing seemed to be over-used on SO.
Granted, I don’t know if AI answers are any better. Sure, they can answer a lot of the simple questions, but I’ve not seen them be useful on hard, more obscure questions. Probably because those questions don’t have ready answers on SO.
the whole XY Problem
lol. I hate this. Just answer the damn question or don’t. I’m not asking you to validate if what I’m doing is weird or not. It’s weird! I know! That’s none of your business. Just answer the damn question or don’t. Simple as.
Never again will I help provide content to a VC-backed service just so that they can rugpull us and cash-out.
That’s why people should be posting on fedi and never post on corporate web.
When corporate tells you its a parasite, believe it
What exactly do you accuse Stack Overflow for? As far as I know this service has always been free to use and data is easily downloadable.
“Free to use” on a VC-backed service just means you’re the product. I am accusing them of the same thing I’m accusing each VC-backed service: That they exploit our efforts to cash out and then sell the service for someone who will enshittify it for profit.
Also, what do you mean “easily downloadable”? Can anyone download the entire corpus of SO in a way that they could set up their own SO with the same content to bootstrap them?
Also, what do you mean “easily downloadable”? Can anyone download the entire corpus of SO in a way that they could set up their own SO with the same content to bootstrap them?
have you seen: https://archive.org/details/stackexchange
That they exploit our efforts to cash out and then sell the service for someone who will enshittify it for profit.
Can you give an example of this enshittification for profit?
Can you give an example of this enshittification for profit?
So I agree, I thought you are talking about some profit enshittification on Stack Overflow
I’m not following SO practices, but I it will come for it as well. It’s inevitable. Those who paid billions for it will require a ROI
Ai haters out there, doesn’t this give a valid use case for LLM?
SO is a collaborative encyclopedia of technical discussion that tries to be relevant, be practical, and to not constantly repeat topics.
LLMs can’t provide that structure, they just shit out answers.
Most people think SO is a help desk and don’t appreciate the structure and just want it to shit out an answer.
Maybe SO isn’t dying so much as a cancerous growth is being treated.
Sucks because I prefer stack overflow in searches because I get more of a human explanation and wisdom. With llm i have to figure out what it’s_trying to do_ , debug it, and god forbid you want various ways of doing the same thing. I hate LLMs for coding. I hate clients for trying to force me to use it when most of the time now they admit they’re hiring me because AI failed in the first place
My experience with SO is that I’ll look up a question about how to do something using X method and all the answers are like “why are you using X?” or “here’s how to do it using Y.”. You rarely find people answering the questions and instead find people trying to spread gospel about a certain tech that you aren’t using.
In my experience has been like “that’s a bug and was solved on version 2.1, update” and I’m having the exact problem in version 2.2 so what now?
I think all that needs to be said is if you search how to install a new CA in a given runtimes cert store, odds are the first and accepted answer will almost without fail describe how to disable ssl.
A lot of times the accepted answer on a locked question will be extremely outdated and/or not even functional anymore.
Modern tech charges at a break neck pace and stack overflow can’t keep up because the people who run the community created rules that artificially led to it not keeping up
deleted by creator
My experience with SO is somewhat the same, but sometimes (actually maybe most times) you’re trying to use a hammer to screw in a screw… If you read the suggestions and take them into account you can often find the actual question, and then the actual answer.
I’ve decided the best way to deal with someone asking an XY question is the following.
- Answer it. I don’t know what this person is doing, maybe they do really need to do some super weird thing and they are 4 weeks deep into “getting this project to work” and they don’t need me giving them the idea they also immediately thought of and can’t do for a bunch of reasons they are too exhausted to go into.
- See if this is an XY problem.
I have found this to be infinitely more well received. I think because by answering the question upfront without any annoying back and forth about why exactly they need to OCR a pdf in JavaScript, they are much more likely to be willing to have a dialog if their immediate question has been met.
The only danger is that some noob might stop reading after the answer and not engage with the deeper design issue, but by gatekeeping the answer behind a “you must convince the council of elders that you are doing something reasonable first” all we’ve done is push those people into ChatGPTs cheery answer first even if you have to make it up hands.
I’ve lost count the number of times where I try to find something in SO, and it’s just someone posting the exact same example code as the answer. Or someone suggesting you just google it. Then I ask ChatGPT… and I get an answer.
Even without LLMs, it’s possible StackOverflow would have eventually faded into irrelevance
Yeah, exactly. A lot of groups have a Discord :( or other forums where people ask questions. I know I’ve had to ask questions on Svelte’s Discord :( for example. And I think even once on some YouTube influencer’s Slack…
Sucks cuz both of those places are silos and my questions and answers are forever lost.
So here’s what I don’t get. LLMs were trained on data from places like SO. SO starts losing users ,and thus content. Content that LLMs ingest to stay relevant.
So where will LLMs get their content after a certain point? Especially for new things that may come out or unique situations. It’s not like it’ll scrape the answer from a web page if people are just asking LLMs.
The need for the service that SO provided won’t go away. Eventually people will migrate to new places to discuss. LLM creators will either constantly scrape those as well, forcing them to implement more and more countermeasures and GenAI-poison, or the services themselves will enshittify and sell our content (i.e. the commons) to LLM-creators.
I worry that the replacement is more likely a move to platforms like Discord. I mean it’s already happened in a lot of projects.
Yes, it’s what I was referring to in the second part.
Discord is terrible for this.
I hate Discord with a passion. Trying to get everyone I know away from it.
The snake eats its tail and it all degenerates into slop. Happy coding!
Not necessarily directly, many people may have abandoned learning programming because of LLMs, rather than Stack Overflow specifically.
I don’t think such trend would be so big. And anyone who has used any LLM for programming learns very quickly that those are very far from replacing anyone
People who know programming already, yes. People who are getting into it / want to get into it, see it as an amazing shortcut.
I had two working students already, who thought and communicated that they don’t really need to learn programming, because they can do it with ChatGPT / Q. It was quite infuriating.
students
When I was a student I despised the idea of typeless
varin C#. Then a few years later at my day job I fully embraced C++auto. I understand the frustration but unfortunately being wrong is part of learning
For real. You can tell how good a programmer someone is, by how good they think an LLM is at programming.
I use it to bounce ideas around with or get it to direct me in the right direction if I am stumped for further research, but it will be a cold day in Hell before I have it write more than the most gruntiest of grunt boilerplate code. It just can’t do it to a useful standard without a lot of oversight.
Same, it’s largely doing pretty much as the article implies, replacing StackOverflow for when I need the correct runes to do something specific.
