I’m not necessarily in favor of data centers. That said, every time I see something like this I just wonder when we are going to start hearing about data centers being built in poor countries powered exclusively by coal and zero regulation. I really have no idea what a good outcome looks like but playing ultra hardball seems unwise. I’m very poorly educated on data centers and AI in general. But, I am an expert in electrical generation. I know we could do it pretty clean, at least relative to coal/heavy oil. I don’t think stopping data centers built in the US will magically cease the boulder rolling in the AI direction. Seems like the money is at its back so its going to happen, just a matter of when, where and how dirty.
Data centers ought to only be allowed in rural areas to begin with. Even if the noise/vibration/heat/etc. weren’t an issue they’re still a goddamn hole with zero foot traffic, and that’s just bad urbanism. They’re like public storage warehouses, but even worse.
They need access to the Internet backbone, but that doesn’t mean they have to be in cities. Put 'em somewhere along the fiber halfway between.
I have first-hand experience living near a source of infrasound, and oh my god, it’s terrible. Here’s a good video about the infrasound generated by data centers.
Job protections and guarantees for workers displaced by automation
Jobs are a necessary evil, not a goal in itself. The goal should be to eliminate all jobs.
Until that time we should figure out a better way to share the burden of the work that nerds to be done as well as better way to distribute resources. Trying to preserve jobs is not the way.
Still missing heat increase, up to 26°F in the surrounding area. All that heat from the gpus and cpus is a lot. I’ve heard of people using their gpus to heat their apartments.
I think there are definitely ways to do these data centers that have minimal external impacts, but it costs money and time, and they are trying to rush these through as fast as possible.
You basically understand what the people with a vested interest in making AI happen want you to know. The truth is that AI is already starting to crumble. It’s a technology that doesn’t do 99% of the things it’s perported to do, and will never do 90% of what they sold it on.
To be more specific (for anyone interested), the next word predictors are usually a type of model called an LSTM (at least I think that’s the most common). This model type has been used for a long time for dealing with sequential data. In 2014 there was a famous paper introducing an attention mechanism. This was a rather brilliant, though relatively minor extension to how LSTMs work. Essentially between each step of an LSTM it generates some data representing the model’s knowledge of the sequence to that point. The attention mechanism looks back at these intermediate values and determines how relevant each state is to the current point in the sequence and pulls in the most relevant bits. This vastly improved the memory of the LSTM over longer sequences.
In 2017 there was another famous paper “attention is all you need” which said something to the effect of “the attention mechanism is doing all the work, we don’t need the rest of the LSTM we can replace it by running attention between all point combinations in the sequence.” It’s actually significantly slower to run as the model grows, but much much faster to train because it’s not intrinsically sequential. This is the transformer model that’s the basis of all our LLMs.
Obviously some massive simplifications here but as despite being fairly anti AI, I do love the engineering behind it. So yeah, pretty literally a fancy text predictor, but it turns out when you throw all the compute you can muster at a fancy word predictor is makes the world go crazy
Just simply ask yourself, why are all the AI companies discussing going public now? I hope you would agree that AI as it currently stands is far from the human brain replacement it was sold as. Outside of a few very specialized fields it’s basically an email generator. They’re out of training data for all intents and purposes. AI generated content is so ubiquitous now that you can’t use most data moving forward without painstakingly checking it all, and AI is becoming increasingly harder to distinguish cheaply or easily. The widespread adoption has poisoned the well. So AI is as advanced as it’s going to be, and it’s not worth its valuation. They’re all racing for the exit and IPOs are their last hope for their backers to sell and get out before the markets stop being irrational. I hope I’m wrong but that seems to be the writing on the wall.
Edit: they’re also already posturing the current administration for a bailout deal.
I’m not necessarily in favor of data centers. That said, every time I see something like this I just wonder when we are going to start hearing about data centers being built in poor countries powered exclusively by coal and zero regulation. I really have no idea what a good outcome looks like but playing ultra hardball seems unwise. I’m very poorly educated on data centers and AI in general. But, I am an expert in electrical generation. I know we could do it pretty clean, at least relative to coal/heavy oil. I don’t think stopping data centers built in the US will magically cease the boulder rolling in the AI direction. Seems like the money is at its back so its going to happen, just a matter of when, where and how dirty.
It’s pretty easy to regulate this:
I’d say your list is a bit too short. Some more considerations (not comprehensive):
Edit:
Data centers ought to only be allowed in rural areas to begin with. Even if the noise/vibration/heat/etc. weren’t an issue they’re still a goddamn hole with zero foot traffic, and that’s just bad urbanism. They’re like public storage warehouses, but even worse.
They need access to the Internet backbone, but that doesn’t mean they have to be in cities. Put 'em somewhere along the fiber halfway between.
I have first-hand experience living near a source of infrasound, and oh my god, it’s terrible. Here’s a good video about the infrasound generated by data centers.
Jobs are a necessary evil, not a goal in itself. The goal should be to eliminate all jobs.
Until that time we should figure out a better way to share the burden of the work that nerds to be done as well as better way to distribute resources. Trying to preserve jobs is not the way.
Still missing heat increase, up to 26°F in the surrounding area. All that heat from the gpus and cpus is a lot. I’ve heard of people using their gpus to heat their apartments.
There was a Bitcoin mining computer being marketed as a dual-purpose space heater lol
What type of generation are you envisioning here? What type of cooling systems?
Datacenters aren’t responsible for workers displaced by automation.
Construction and noise aren’t special to datacenters and don’t need special regulation.
Agreed
I think there are definitely ways to do these data centers that have minimal external impacts, but it costs money and time, and they are trying to rush these through as fast as possible.
Yeah, tough to have a good faith conversation about it.
The US will soon be the poor country that’s powered by coal and zero regulation.
soon?
You basically understand what the people with a vested interest in making AI happen want you to know. The truth is that AI is already starting to crumble. It’s a technology that doesn’t do 99% of the things it’s perported to do, and will never do 90% of what they sold it on.
Yeah I’m not versed in the subject enough to say/think you’re wrong necessarily. I do know the general slant Lemmy’s population has against it though.
GenAI as it currently stands is a fancy text predictor. You ever had your phone suggest the next word in a message you’re typing? It’s that, on crack.
When you really wrap your head around the fact that that is all it’s doing, it loses a lot of its appeal imho. Especially for the cost to do so.
To be more specific (for anyone interested), the next word predictors are usually a type of model called an LSTM (at least I think that’s the most common). This model type has been used for a long time for dealing with sequential data. In 2014 there was a famous paper introducing an attention mechanism. This was a rather brilliant, though relatively minor extension to how LSTMs work. Essentially between each step of an LSTM it generates some data representing the model’s knowledge of the sequence to that point. The attention mechanism looks back at these intermediate values and determines how relevant each state is to the current point in the sequence and pulls in the most relevant bits. This vastly improved the memory of the LSTM over longer sequences.
In 2017 there was another famous paper “attention is all you need” which said something to the effect of “the attention mechanism is doing all the work, we don’t need the rest of the LSTM we can replace it by running attention between all point combinations in the sequence.” It’s actually significantly slower to run as the model grows, but much much faster to train because it’s not intrinsically sequential. This is the transformer model that’s the basis of all our LLMs.
Obviously some massive simplifications here but as despite being fairly anti AI, I do love the engineering behind it. So yeah, pretty literally a fancy text predictor, but it turns out when you throw all the compute you can muster at a fancy word predictor is makes the world go crazy
Lemmy’s population is overrepresented by software engineers who know more about how LLMs actually work than the general public does. Let that sink in.
Also a field disproportionately affected by it so still kinda biased
Just simply ask yourself, why are all the AI companies discussing going public now? I hope you would agree that AI as it currently stands is far from the human brain replacement it was sold as. Outside of a few very specialized fields it’s basically an email generator. They’re out of training data for all intents and purposes. AI generated content is so ubiquitous now that you can’t use most data moving forward without painstakingly checking it all, and AI is becoming increasingly harder to distinguish cheaply or easily. The widespread adoption has poisoned the well. So AI is as advanced as it’s going to be, and it’s not worth its valuation. They’re all racing for the exit and IPOs are their last hope for their backers to sell and get out before the markets stop being irrational. I hope I’m wrong but that seems to be the writing on the wall.
Edit: they’re also already posturing the current administration for a bailout deal.
My understanding is natural gas is cheaper than coal nowadays because the waste heat can be captured and reused.
In my country, the data centres are in poor areas.