To make this clear: Patreon is a platform mainly used by creators, artists, musicians to get a reliable income directly from their fans. Apple is trying to steal 30% of the income of our favorite artists.
Yeah, hopefully Patron doesn’t roll over and just removes the option to do it in iPhone. Taking away functionality will make Apple look bad, which they deserve.
I really think this move blows and I wish they would reverse this decision and make an exception.
However Tim Cook didn’t wake up one day and wonder how he could fuck creators. Apple takes a 30% cut of all app transactions. This is how they benefit from the enormous and highly successful app platform and ecosystem they created. It’s not pure evil to say “hey use this platform all you want but you must share some of what you make there with us.”
It does suck that they won’t let creators off the hook though. This is like taxing rips.
The platform is enormous and highly successful solely because it is a monopoly in the Apple ecosystem
I guarantee you if other app stores were allowed on Apple devices, they would take significant market share with a far smaller cut of revenue
We can safely assume that alternative app stores would have less effect on iOS than they have on Android, where Google desperately wants others to step in and develop their ecosystem. And they aren’t very significant on Android at all. I tried distributing my app on Samsung Galaxy in addition to GPlay and despite its preferential positioning with the world’s largest phone maker, I got peanuts for installs. Not even a rounding error. I literally took the app down. Oh and then Xiaomi got banned from the SDK and they stole my APK for their third party app store and began sending me bug reports about how it was “broken” there. Ah yes the power and glory of alternative app stores… Apple are wise not to dump this cesspit into their ecosystem, which people love because all they want is one decent, unified default that works well.
Why does Apple feel they deserve a 30% cut? In cases like this, Apple aren’t providing any value at all.
- Apple aren’t providing the content - the creator is.
- Apple aren’t providing a platform for the content - Patreon is.
- Apple aren’t providing a platform for discovery - people aren’t finding Patreon creators solely via Apple products.
Sure, Apple are providing a payments platform, but why do they deserve 10x what Stripe charges?
Deserving is irrelevant under Capitalism. It’s only whether they can get away with it or not?
And fixing this problem is going to require a similar attitude from the people tired of this.
We need to rep our interests as ruthlessly and as sophisticatedly as our enemies.
We have a winner
gotta get the money to bribe trump somehow
Just pass on the cost of the corruption to the consumer, as usual. It’s the Corruption Tax.
Where else would it come from? 🤷♂️
This sums the problem up fairly nicely I think. I do wonder with Apple being a gatekeeper by EUs own definition and unfair sales terms supposed to be history with the Digital Markets Act in place this can’t go through, right!!! at least not in the EU… assuming they do their job.
Lack of competition. No other app store is allowed to operate on Apple devices. They have a monopoly, which is the only reason they can charge as much as they do
Sure, Apple are providing a payments platform, but why do they deserve 10x what Stripe charges?
I don’t believe that 30% cut includes payment processing. That’s an additional fee
Sad to think about how little creators actually get at the end of the day. Example of a $100 donation/subscription:
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Apple takes 30%
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Card companies take ~4%
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Patreon takes 10%
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Taxes take another big chunk
After all that a the creator would have, what, $40?
No other app store is allowed to operate on Apple devices
That’s only true outside of Europe. In the EU, they were forced to allow third-party app stores. The US government doesn’t have the guts to do that, since they focus more on the needs/wants of companies, whereas the EU is really focused on consumer rights.
- Card companies take ~4%
- Patreon takes 10%
Does Patreon’s cut not include payment processing?
The other thing that’s ridiculous in the USA is how much credit card processing costs. Stripe is around 3%, while in countries it can be half of that (in Australia, it’s commonly around 1% for debit cards and 1.5% for credit cards).
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This is THE way that Apple gets any revenue from the enormous and highly successful app platform and ecosystem they created. They say “go nuts, make money on our platform, but share some with us in exchange for our maintaining that platform.” This is reasonable. Apple is providing a service to Patreon, and access to their tremendous user base. That ain’t nothing.
I agree that subjecting creator donations to the 30% is about the shittiest use case for this and I wish they would make an exception. But your post about how Apple is doing absolutely nothing here is garbage.
It’s one way but not the only way. They make money from developers before they even write a single line of code, every year.
Apple is doing nothing in this particular case, not in general. There’s cases where the 30% is more justified.
Oh is there some case where Apple is creating the content inside the app??? Do tell.
I meant more if people wouldn’t have found your app without Apple. In that case, they’re essentially handling marketing for you.
Being in the AppStore gives you access to a lot of people. I don’t feel it’s at all relevant whether you happen to also have other exposure elsewhere. Apple charges you for the exposure you get from them, period. If you don’t want to pay for it, because you’re so successful on other channels, just don’t. Don’t have an iOS app. But for years we’ve had people who want an iOS app but also want to complain about sharing what they make from it. They still make too much to be willing to pull their app, but they complain anyway: because who doesn’t want higher margins.
I suspect this has more to do with closing a loophole than going after Patreon and only Patreon.
People don’t have to subscribe through the app. and Patreon don’t have to offer that functionality in the App. Apple don’t have Patreon locked in to their platform.
Because greed.
Why does Apple feel they deserve a 30% cut?
Because they can. Time and time again, useful idiots have proven their dipshittery by sucking off the people taking them for a ride.
A main tenant of business decisions is to fuck over your customers as hard as they’re willing to be fucked. Since nobody has any standards these days, corporations make a killing.
I hope Patreon will just switch off the ability to pay through the iOS app, along with a nice fuck you-message to Apple that pops up when you first open the app
Last time this came up Patreon simply allowed the creators to charge the commission directly on top of the price for non apple users, or eat the 30% loss. So everyone not using iOS would pay, say, $5/month, iOS users would pay $5+30%. Hope they retain that option.
That’s actually a good solution
Is it? Previously this was considered tips
Now it’s 30% for what? Running a payment gateway and hiding an unsubscribe button deep in the App Store UI.
Competitively payment gateways charge 1-3%, but when you lock down a platform you can charge 10x that.
Yeah, I remember cause my Patreon account asked me what I wanted to do about apple trying to steal my money
p.s. I never push Patreon so have no subs lol
It’s logical but it probably scares away some customers. That’s why the “just eat it” option exists. iOS gives you access to an enormous market and payments are slick and easy. Creators may want $5 but if they can get 30% less from 500% more people, it’s still a good business for them. There’s no strict reason why they must obsess over taking 100% of the sticker price. There are a million examples of businesses who are willing to accept a discount for high volume business.
Ya a few apps already do this. YouTube premium does for sure and I have heard a few others doing so.
It reminds me of gas stations that only accept ATM cards and not credit cards, because they don’t want to lose the 3% that credit card companies take per transaction. They’re trying not to lose that 3%, but it will inconvenience some customers and lose them some business. That could easily be worse than 3%.
So yes Patreon could say “go find a laptop and enter your credit card number in our web page” but there are people who won’t do all that because they expect to be able to pay with one tap. And businesses are on the AppStore because that great payment experience makes it super easy for them to convert customers.
It’s just not as straightforward as saying “fuck you Apple, I’ll take my business elsewhere.”
That would be nice, but when Apple says “jump,” all the other businesses ask “how high?”
The world is full of morons with more money than sense.
I was actually curious how this currently works as I’ve never used the Patreon app, so thanks for that. I’m sure it’s a nice convenience to be able to transact through the app, but not 30% passive Apple income levels of nice. It’s too bad they are stuck in their flat-rate commission model, because alienating third-party developers and businesses in this manner will kill their ecosystem.
Can any current creators on Patreon provide some insight into how the revenue streams break down between the iOS/Android app platforms versus the website? What impact do you foresee if instead of a payment option in the app it simply directs you to the website?
That’s how the system works. You don’t expect Walmart to not get a commission when you sell something at their store.
30% is reasonable. DEAL WITH IT.
Don’t like it? Make your own phone and platform.
Opening up the comments on macrumors never disappoints me :)
its also not how it works… at all. walmart would buy wholesale from a supplier not directly from the seller
The bigger the asset, the more sacrosanct are that asset’s interests.
That is a system of nearly unlimited milking of anyone who is not themselves represented through a multi-hundred billion dollar asset.
Fighting this in the business or legal arena is a complete waste of time. Those battlefields are favorable to the biggest assets.
See? Apple users are as dumb as a sack of diapers and deserve to be taken advantage of accordingly.
What exactly does Apple think that they’re brining to the equation in order to deserve that 30? Is it simply that they’re hosting an app on their store, so therefore they’re entitled to a cut?
So if I write a novel, and get it published, Microsoft can say "We deserve 30% because you used our product to produce your product?
I’m so fucking tired of corporations. It’s well past guillotine-o-clock.
They’re bringing the apple tax to the table
What exactly does Apple think that they’re brining to the equation in order to deserve that 30?
Apple users are some of the dumbest people on the planet. Most of them will gleefully support paying more to make the company richer.
Why isn’t Apple trying to take 30% of all purchases through the Amazon app? Or eBay? Or your local grocery delivery? It’s the same exact thing. Such a stupid greedy fucking attempt
Next they’ll take 30% on every transaction through my banking app.
Iirc it has to do with “monthly subscriptions” and they are arguing that Patreon is a monthly subscription and those get charged at the higher amount.
It’s why subscribing to YouTube premium within iOS app costs more because Google just makes up the difference that way.
Not that’s it’s right but it’s really debatable if Patreon should be considered a monthly subscription the same way streaming services are.
Yeah, it’s certainly not the same thing. The creators set the terms as they please.
Tim Cook needs more money to forge golden offerings for his good pal Donald trump.
It’s wild that Steam is getting a class action lawsuit for charging 30% right now, and Apple doing shit like this at the same percentage and legally is getting a free pass.
I’ll throw a hat in the ring here. It’s because Steam has a grip on the gaming market that others want instead of them. That’s it, they want that money instead of Valve. Apple is getting a pass on this because it’s just fucking over the common guy which businesses couldn’t care less about.
But Valve doesn’t have a monopoly on PC games. You can sell your own game, or sell through GOG. On iPhone, Apple has the monopoly and they abuse it.
I was trying to avoid the monopoly complaint because it’s bogus for the reason you said. The truth, Valve has a massive market share and people are very used to Steam, tied to it in many cases. Other publishers tried to set out on their own with their own store fronts and most of those have utterly failed. Even Epic still sells their games on Steam. It’s a powerful market with a lot of brand loyalty that those companies really do want themselves.
Fair.
Other than the “not actually a monopoly” argument, I think it’s important that Steam has that marketshare because they add value. They have a stranglehold on the market similar to the way BarCodes do. You don’t have to register your product with the bar code authority, but it will sure make your product more accessible to more people.
And that’s before cloud saves, achievements, patching infrastructure, community forums, game recording/streaming, and other stuff built into the Steam client/API.
Whether that’s worth a blanket 30% is absolutely a conversation worth having. Maybe it should be a sliding / bracketed scale depending on revenue or units sold or something. But like you said, the big lawsuits are coming from competitors, not smaller developers.
I’d welcome actual, legitimate competition to Steam. That means it has to be as good if not BETTER than Steam in some ways. Epic, Apple, EA, Ubisoft, etc, sure as hell did not deliver. If anything it caused market segmentation and segregation.
True, but nobody is bound by it. There are other ways to sell on PC, there are no other ways to sell on iPhone. And games bought elsewhere will work just fine on a PC that has Steam installed. Anyone can leave at any time, or buy from anywhere. The only way to do that on iPhone is to switch your entire phone with Android. Apple’s position on the iPhone is far more controlling and monopolistic than Steam’s on PC.
The Steam tax might be too steep as well, but these are not identical situations. It’s far easier to avoid Steam if you don’t want it. I prefer to buy from GOG, and only buy from Steam when it’s cheaper or not available on GOG.
Right, but Valve is actually providing the service and infrastructure. Apple is not.
They are, I’m not arguing against Valve or for Apple. I’m explaining that business people want moar money and don’t like it when someone else makes it when they could.
Just crank all iOS user payments up by 30%, explain why, and let nature sort itself out.
Apple doesn’t allow this - they expect your price to be the same everywhere or they’ll remove the app from their store or decline version updates. There have historically been a few high profile exceptions privately negotiated, and I think they were forced to relax this in the last year or two, but here they are again trying to claw away money they did literally nothing to earn.
Think. Of. The. Shareholders.
No
I’m an Apple shareholder and think this is a great way to lose engagement and revenue
Willing to sell those shares?
Why? Haven’t you noticed the apple userbase is filled with morons who are proud to make rich people richer?
So, all business is becoming a protection racket?
Terribly need degoogled android to become popular and/or a normal Linux distribution phone to become popular so that normal Linux market share couldn’t be ignored
I had no idea Apple was so desperate for money
One way, or another, that revenue stream will go to shit, they’re just doing a smash and grab while they can.
Technofeudalism.
Timmy Cook is just a bean counter. He’s got nothing to innovate or build. That’s Apple has been buying back shares non stop. Their lead designer jumped ship a while ago. It’s only a matter of time.
They still have wicked hardware, nobody is near their M5 performance/watt though
Good perf per watt, but super expensive, walled garden, internally spying and nearly unrepairable.
