This sounds like actual impactful consequences and accountability for the rich exploitative asshole executives actually responsible? Did I forget to wake up in the morning?
Before anyone becomes too happy: the post’s title is inaccurate, the two people sent to jail are only middle managers:
What’s Volkswagen’s org structure like? I wouldn’t normally expect a department head to be middle management.
I mean the diesel engine department would probably be quite big for a company like Volkswagen. Each engine type has a team of engineers and a manager.
I… I thought a middle manager is any manager who’s not the very lowest manager, and not the CEO? As in, any manager who has managers above and below them?
I thought middle management was the guy in between the crew and upper management?
Absolute shit stressful job, btw. Never doing that shit again. If you have a heart, that job will kill it.
Good question - I also don’t know how clear those definitions are. In my head all managers that are under department heads would be middle, and department heads + C-suite would be upper/senior management. And the subset of upper management that is C-level is, well, C-level.
Think of them more like division heads. Not quite a regular middle manager, but not C-suite.
deleted my happy post bc of this
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One insanity in the following years was how they thought people still wanted their next generation diesel.
I’ve been working for them in the 2010s with the department to organise the staff car fleet. We ordered many electric vehicles years ahead from production and planned it all around electric vehicles: Charging stations, operating distance, some hybrids for long distance, software to calculate trips etc.
Then a few months before we needed them, they said: We overproduced on the latest diesel generation and can’t keep up with the demand for electric vehicles, so we have to sell the ones you ordered. You can either go with a Tesla (for official Volkswagen business trips!) or have the diesel for free.
It felt like there was a hysteria: Decision makers got it in their heads that the “hype” for electric vehicles was ideology-driven and not something people with buying power actually wanted today or in the near future. Bit like the republican administration thinking that “woke” is our main problem. Meanwhile, huge research and development departments did come up with the electric vehicles they sell today (and fully working hydrogen prototypes you won’t see in a store, just to be safe) and must have been quite frustrated that so few were produced.
Good. Finally they’re facing some actual consequences for their actions.
If only also the politicians that decided what the limits should be without any consideration for the real world would face the consequences…
Not that the VW guys did the right thing, but what other option they had ? Close down and go home ?
I disagree. VW could have crashed their diesel production in favor of hybrids and EVs. They’re playing late to the game catch up now and may not survive at all. Putting off something you know is coming - the end of diesel vehicle prevalence - through deception YOU KNOW WILL RESULT IN MILLIONS OF VEHICLES CONTRIBUTING WORSE EMISSIONS BUT BEING REGARDED AS BETTER - that’s fucking heinous and criminal.
Oh maybe you have an extra biosphere we can slap on to the one being wrecked by CO2? No?
Anyone who knew the truth is complicit in that destruction and we’re only beginning to quantify the harm.
I disagree.
Fine, but aside the fact that everyone lied in this matter, why we should spare the ones that make an absurd law with no ties to the real world and only fueled by ideology ? I repeat, I don’t think that what VW did was right.
VW could have crashed their diesel production in favor of hybrids and EVs.
The hybrids maybe, but that not really solve the problem, even the first hybrids from Toyota had a 1.5 liter gasoline engine.
For a full EVs we are just now at a point where they start to become usable. And the reason is that you need a whole infrastructure around the EV cars, just think about chargers, additional space there to put them, place where you cannot put them and so on.They’re playing late to the game catch up now and may not survive at all.
I agree on that.
Putting off something you know is coming - the end of diesel vehicle prevalence - through deception YOU KNOW WILL RESULT IN MILLIONS OF VEHICLES CONTRIBUTING WORSE EMISSIONS BUT BEING REGARDED AS BETTER - that’s fucking heinous and criminal.
Well, from a technical point of view, the diesel engine is cleaner in some way and dirtier in other so I would say that the diesel is not better but also not worse. It only produce a different type of emissions.
And, by the way, the emission’s limits for a diesel engine in the Euro-X normatives are always way lower then the ones for the gasoline.
Oh maybe you have an extra biosphere we can slap on to the one being wrecked by CO2? No?
Of course not. But on the other hand I am not stupid enough to adhere blindly to an ideology.
Anyone who knew the truth is complicit in that destruction and we’re only beginning to quantify the harm.
So the politicians are the first you need to jail.
Of course not. But on the other hand I am not stupid enough to adhere blindly to an ideology.
ah yes, the silly ideology of breathing.
So how we can call what is behind the “ban this and that” mentality which is without any real study about the consequences and without any suggestion for alternatives ? Pre-intentional stupidity ?
Look, I am fully aware that what VW (and everyone else) did was a crime and I agree that they must pay. On the oher hand I also fully understand that you cannot change the reality only because you write a law to change it, in this case all the Euro-x normatives about emission levels.
Do you think that it is a silly idelogy to ask that also the people that make silly decision that they will not suffer are asked to pay for the consequences ? Fine, think this way.
Do we really lost the concept that one can agree with something but also see what the problems of that thing are ?
Yes, VW could have switched to hydrid or EV but not in the timeframe they are given.
Not to consider that switching the entire production to hybrid and EV without the necessary infrastructure to use them in the real world is useless, you simply build cars that nobody will buy.Tokyo banned diesel motors in the late 90s. As far as I know that didn’t kill Toyota.
At the same time European car makers started to lobby for particle filters that were supposed to solve everything. The politics who where naive enough to believe them do share responsibility, but not as much as the european auto industry that created this whole situation.
Also, you implies that laws are made by politicians without any intervention of the industries whatsoever. I think you know that it is not how it works.
The real world consequences of keeping fossil fuel cars is much higher than banning all of them.
US Republicans be like “ANTI-BUSINESS! Enjoying communism?”
Anyone have a link without the anti GDRP cookie trackers?
content itself https://lemmy.world/post/30292632/17298348
Thanks!
I’m getting a paywall or adblock block or something. Anyone have a less problematic link to the article?
Here you go:
Four former Volkswagen managers have been convicted of fraud for their roles in the so-called Dieselgate scandal, which erupted when U.S. regulators discovered that the company had installed software to cheat emissions tests on millions of VW, Audi, and Porsche vehicles worldwide.
The court sent the former head of diesel engine development behind bars for four years and six months, and the former head of powertrain electronics to two years and seven months. Two others — Volkswagen’s former development director and a former department head — received suspended sentences, according to Der Spiegel and Deutsche Welle reports from the Braunschweig courtroom.
The verdict follows nearly four years of proceedings and adds to the mounting legal troubles for Volkswagen. Prosecutors had asked for prison terms of two to four years, while the defense argued the men were scapegoats. Appeals remain possible.
After being caught cheating in 2015, the company admitted to installing software in its diesel engines that activated emissions controls only during laboratory testing, allowing the vehicles to meet U.S. standards while in real-world driving, the vehicles emitted up to 40 times more pollutants.
The fallout forced CEO Martin Winterkorn to resign, although he denied wrongdoing. U.S. authorities issued an arrest warrant for Winterkorn in 2018, but Germany does not extradite its nationals. His trial in Germany was paused in 2021 due to health issues, but he remains a key figure under investigation.
Meanwhile, the arrest of Audi’s then-CEO Rupert Stadler in 2018 marked a dramatic shift, as German prosecutors expanded their probe into current executives. Stadler was accused of continuing to sell cars with illegal software even after the scandal broke.
Across the Atlantic, two former VW engineers — Oliver Schmidt and James Robert Liang — are already serving prison sentences in the U.S. Schmidt, who once led VW’s environmental office in the U.S., was sentenced to seven years after initially denying guilt but later reaching a plea deal. Liang received 40 months after cooperating with prosecutors.
Currently, German authorities are investigating up to 40 executives and engineers across Volkswagen, Audi, and Porsche, with parallel cases against Daimler (Mercedes) and BMW under way.
OCCRP previously reported on Volkswagen’s 2017 U.S. guilty plea and multibillion-dollar settlement.
The Dieselgate saga has so far cost VW an estimated €33 billion ($37.5 billion) and the legal and financial fallout is far from over.
Thousands of European customers continue to press for compensation, while investigators on both sides of the Atlantic keep pushing for accountability at the highest levels.
defense argued the men were scapegoats.
If you are at the top of an organisation then you can you be a scapegoat? You are literally in charge. Your only chance is if an employee committed fraud and deliberately hid something from you.
Head of department is middle management. Middle management is certainly the most vulnerable position in situations like this.
The top manager got a nice compensation and very high pension (according to German media ~€1.3 million per year), while the owners (Piech/Porsche family) still earn billions every year.
Top managers do seem to be targeted.
CEO Martin Winterkorn’s trial in Germany was paused in 2021 due to health issues, but he remains a key figure under investigation.
The arrest of Audi’s then-CEO Rupert Stadler in 2018 marked a dramatic shift into current executives.
Owners responsibility is interesting. I think the concept of limited liability protects them, but should it? If they actively influenced the policy I don’t think it should (but proving that is difficult).
Let’s go Germany!! Shouldn’t be the exception to the rule
That’s all we need! We will take back control, restore law and order!
Gefängnisvergnügen
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oh no, my VW stocks 🥲
Is that why my VWAGY and VWAPY have been slowly recovering from their late 2024 slump? Because the old managers were crooks but they’re out now?
Man, what a wild world.
This thing happened 2009-> and they got caught around 2015. Justice system is slow.
Ah, right then, the European stock market continues to shift up and down beyond any comprehensible logic. I am saying this unironically.
I long for the day that ANYTHING close to this happens in the USA
Seems like it also doesn’t happen in Germany, as the post title doesn’t match the article.
The two people sent to jail are middle managers (Head of XY), not executives.
I long for the day that ANYTHING close to this happens in the USA
I guess you’ve good news, then.
Across the Atlantic, two former VW engineers — Oliver Schmidt and James Robert Liang — are already serving prison sentences in the U.S. Schmidt, who once led VW’s environmental office in the U.S., was sentenced to seven years after initially denying guilt but later reaching a plea deal. Liang received 40 months after cooperating with prosecutors.
This is the most unbelievable part: a us court held management responsible for criminal behavior? Did that not pay their fines? Did no one have a spare jet to offer?
To salvage the argument, it’s quite possible this would have been different if they were from GM rather than VW.
It most likely would‘ve. Just look how quickly US courts started to turn Monsanto into shreds the very second Bayer bought it. They‘re after that so called stupid German money. Wouldn‘t work if it was American money.
I am surprised VW clowns got the prison tbh but i am sure there is a reason why it actually happened here.
System fucked up lol
I dunno, VW is about as American as GM.
two former VW engineers
Yeah, unless they are Chief Engineers, these two are just people who got caught in the churn.
Wake me up when the President of US Operations gets sentenced to prison. Hell, I’ll even be okay with club Fed.
They are like the one guy who went to jail for the 08 financial crisis
two former VW engineers
Not CEOs
Neither were the people in Germany.
The court sent the former head of diesel engine development behind bars for four years and six months, and the former head of powertrain electronics to two years and seven months. Two others — Volkswagen’s former development director and a former department head — received suspended sentences, according to Der Spiegel and Deutsche Welle reports from the Braunschweig courtroom.
The (now ex-) CEO of VW, Winterkorn, is a fugitive from justice in US – the reason he isn’t in prison in the US is because he’s hiding in Germany, and Germany doesn’t extradite its nationals. IIRC from memory back during the incident, he’s facing a total of over two hundred years in potential sentence from the charges, though some of that would probably run in parallel, were he convicted, and I assume that in practice, there’d be some sort of plea deal.
EDIT: Maybe it was over one hundred, not two hundred. I distinctly remember trying to figure out whether the sentences could run in parallel when reading an article about it at the time. In practice, he’d probably plea bargain it down, but there also is no parole for federal sentences in the US, so he wouldn’t be getting out early, either.
EDIT2: Also, because he’s a fugitive and it’s a federal crime:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3290
18 U.S. Code § 3290 - Fugitives from justice
No statute of limitations shall extend to any person fleeing from justice.
So I expect that he’s probably going to stay in Germany for the rest of his life, unless he can find some other location that wouldn’t extradite him (Russia?)
According to Wikipedia, he should have a criminal trial in Germany starting this year, so it’s possible he will still get sentenced there as well.
Russia?
Saudi Arabia might take him. Hell, they put up Idi Amin for the remainder of his syphilis-scarred life.
When you don’t read the article ^
While I see your point, it’s important to note that the people jailed in the US were called “engineers”, not “executives”.
The fallout forced CEO Martin Winterkorn to resign, although he denied wrongdoing. U.S. authorities issued an arrest warrant for Winterkorn in 2018, but Germany does not extradite its nationals.
Unless I misunderstood something?
You can be both. Schmidt was general manager of VW’s U.S. Environment and Engineering Office.
As much as I like to see consequences, I would rather have just seen a very large fine put toward environmental purposes than prison time. Save prison for people who pose a direct danger to the public.
But their scam did pose a direct health danger to society. If there are never consequences for executives, they won’t care if the company loses some money (or go bankrupt), they land another job elsewhere and live on.
I would agree, but with one significant condition:
the fine would have to be large enough to be an effective punishment, and serve as a deterrent. A company as valuable as VW would have to pay an enormous fine.
For funsies the justice department fined Meta fifty million dollars. Meta made that back by the time your eyes got to the end of this sentence.
<coughs out a bunch of diesel emissions> “hear hear!”
Would VW have many overseas “executives”?
I don’t know if they’d have many, but I’d expect them to have at least a few. North America is a major market.
Their subsidiary companies do, but VW is a German company, the “executives” are ALL gonna be there dude… and those US execs would be doing what THEIR oversea “executives” want them to, so there’s still people above those who may be overseas. So calling them “executives” would be wrong since there is people above them still.
The point is, your “note” doesn’t matter mate.
Even if it’s not VW executives it would be nice to see any executives actually face jail here in the US.
Every multinational corp has execs for each region.
President and VP of insert region operation is a common title given to EXECS of foreign corps.
Yes, what do you think subsidiary means…?
These engineers clearly held executive roles, they just weren’t with the Volkswagen (germany) so they would have had to clarify their subsidiary. For journalism this was the correct wording. If they wanted to call them execs, it would have had to go into detail about Volkswagen (Us particular division and reasons)
If you’re talking about Fritolays, you don’t just go and say execs when talking about “lays” or “Doritos” subsidiaries, you would use “engineers” or whatever other work they held to simplify it.
It’s an unnecessary distinction for non mutually exclusive exclusive terms, to use “executives” would lead to more confusion and that would be shit journalism….
It’s an article about the German Volkswagen, why are you assuming it’s about the multinational subsidiary? You can be an engineer for Volkswagen, and their subsidiary, but that requires explaining if you want to call them that. Which is totally unnecessary since the article wasn’t about them.
Oh. You’re only counting GERMAN execs as executives. Okay.
Yes… the article is about the German company dude…… not the “Volkswagen group” and not “Volkswagen international” or whatever includes their multinational groups. To assume otherwise is just weird, they never mentioned anything but their German company.
Terms aren’t mutually exclusive… you don’t think those engineers held executive roles? They just weren’t executives of Volkswagen.
They would have had to say executives of Volkswagen (insert whatever specifics of the subsidiary), for it to be the correct term. Engineers is simpler and easier and is the proper way to express the situation.
Your “point” muddies the water and needs to bring on multiple additional pieces of information, which would also need to be described. Most people would know these engineers held executives roles, with some part farther down the “executive” chain.
You can be an engineer for Volkswagen, while also being the executive for Volkswagen US NW division, but it’s irrelevant to the article and requires more completely unnecessary information, so in the effort of good journalism and brevity….
Nah, I get what you’re saying, but we’re used to engineers and regular workers getting arrested here. We’ve got one of the most… comprehensive?.. prison systems in the world. It’s just so rare to find executives and anyone making over $300k suffer any real consequences.
Why aim low, why not public flogging, and pillories?
How about we don’t bring back corporal punishment. I get the sentiment, but i’d rather our justice system didn’t turn into a torture system.
why do you hate success?
Success = falsifying emissions tests.
that’s how real people get ahead in life while the peasants work
lol which group do you identify as?
the temporarily embarrassed billionaires, obviously
any day now! I will ascendant 🤡
I know! Let’s elect a demented rapist who has no idea how anything works or even how to finish a thought! We’ll be rich immediately!
Poe’s law applies here. Remember to use your sarcasm HTML tag!
<s> Why do you hate success? </s>
I’m used to executives being above the law. I had to read the article to be sure the title wasn’t clickbait.
They are, the post title is false. The people going to jail are middle managers
It is very puzzling, isn’t it? Why VW execs are put in jail and banking execs that created a global recession get off scot free?
oh that’s easy. the VW execs were under the jurisdiction of a country that gives a fuck and knows what the consecuences of unchecked greed are. the bankers were under the jurisdiction of a country that thinks maybe a little bit of fascism wouldn’t be so bad, all things considered
Except, as noted above, they were jailed in US too.
Because that act didn’t hurt an American company
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