Did your Roku TV decide to strong arm you into giving up your rights or lose your FULLY FUNCTIONING WORKING TV? Because mine did.
It doesn’t matter if you only use it as a dumb panel for an Apple TV, Fire stick, or just to play your gaming console. You either agree or get bent.
“My child, a minor, clicked agree when trying to use the TV I paid for. I have never seen this EULA.”
I got this yesterday, as well. There’s no way this could hold up legally, right? Like my 7 year old could easily just click through that, no way this is a legally binding contract to forfeit jury rights and right to sue.
…right?
It’s not enforceable at all, but it’s an extra step of litigation that the average consumer can’t afford to wade through
Are you sure it isn’t enforceable? Forced arbitration clauses are very common and I think pretty solid legally.
There have been US court cases where arbitration clauses were voided if they weren’t prominently visible outside the box before purchase. Dang vs Samsung
Before purchase seems to be the big thing. LG is also under fire for this regarding fridges as they put it on the box but typically that wasn’t seen prior to purchase (the fridge models on the floor are unboxed) and many people use delivery companies that do the unboxing before the item gets to the consumer.
The FAIR Act prohibits mandatory arbitration agreements for employment, consumer, antitrust, or civil rights disputes. The FAIR Act also protects the rights of individuals and small businesses to participate in joint, class, or collective actions related to such disputes.
FAIR Act
badass, but I am not sure the FAIR act was signed into law. I am finding conflicting information https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/117/hr963
Yeah so it has passed the house but the Senate hasn’t voted on it and therefore the President hasn’t signed it and it isn’t law?
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/963/all-actions?overview=closed#tabs
This is the latest entry …
Received in the Senate and Read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary.
It’s meant to scare people from attempting anything
Time for a class action suite.
Noooooooo, you just signed that right away! /s
“My cat stepped on the controller, your honor. I never actually saw or agreed to those terms.”
I hope the suite (sounds like sweet) has snacks because I’m hungry. We’ll be waiting there while the law(suit) is pending.
Isn’t this equivalent to those trucks that have “stay back 300 feet - not responsible for damage” signage, when in reality they are legally responsible if their load isn’t secured?
it certainly hasn’t been tested in court yet, at least not that I’ve been able to find. These EULAs are often just corporate wishlists and until they go in front of a judge it’s difficult to know what provisions will actually stick. I hope that they don’t have the ability to bait and switch EULAs but this is America, some judge somewhere might take it upon himself to protect my freedom to have my TV remotely disabled after I pay for it.
These EULAs are often just corporate wishlists
Then I really wish there were regulations over what kinds of things you’re allowed to put in a contract. If there were punitive measures for putting things in contracts that anyone should know is not enforceable, then maybe companies would think twice before putting language like this in.
There are some regulations. A contract can be ruled unconscionable by a court, which is basically saying “no one in their right mind would ever agree to this so we’re not gonna enforce it”. Contracts have to give both sides duties (things they have to do) and consideration (things they get for performing the duties), so no court will enforce a contract that doesn’t materially benefit both sides in some way.
But I agree with you that there should be some sort of blowback to putting together purposely overreaching contracts and then counting on people not knowing their rights or not having the resources to enforce them in order to profit from an illegitimate contract.
Yeah, that second paragraph is more what I was thinking (terrible phrasing on my part). The issue is that fighting these contracts in court is risky - you might lose, and even if you don’t, it’s a big commitment to fight a legal case against a large company no matter which jurisdiction you’re in.
To put it another way, look at it from a game theory perspective - there’s plenty of benefit from putting these terms in, and no downside whatsoever. So the optimal move for vendors is to put garbage like this into the contact.
There have been US court cases where arbitration clauses were voided if they weren’t prominently visible outside the box before purchase. Dang vs Samsung
“This is the type of shit I be talking about” —dmx
Iirc wasn’t that one on the box of a fridge, but the people who installed it deboxed it first and then Samsung tried to argue that the customer was still bound by a EULA they never knew existed?
That’s another one still working through the court.
it certainly hasn’t been tested in court yet, at least not that I’ve been able to find.
Arbitration is allowed in an EULA and has been sanctioned by courts.
Most agreements are considered enforceable as long as their content is reasonable, you have been granted sufficient notice to accept or decline the agreement, the agreement is not unconscionable, and it doesn’t violate the UCC.
The question isn’t whether arbitration clauses are legal the question is whether selling someone something and then, after the sale, presenting them with a take it or leave it EULA that disables the product if they dont agree, and also what recourse the consumer has if they don’t agree to a post-sale EULA. Brower v Gateway said that post-sale EULAs are binding but only because in that case the consumer had the option to return the product for a refund and didn’t. Klocek v Gateway ruled that any terms presented after a sale represent a separate contract beyond the one that was agreed to by both parties at the time of sale. It’s possible that either of these would apply to the OP. It’s also possible for courts to rule that the sale of the physical TV was a one-time agreement but that this EULA is separate and represents an ongoing agreement to allow access to Roku’s services.
Your comment actually circles around the issue at hand when you say that EULAs are enforceable if “…you have been granted sufficient notice to accept or decline…”. The thrust of the argument is that adding conditions after the sale of an object that, if not agreed to, render the object inoperable feels an awful lot like not being given sufficient notice and is essentially a backdoor by which the contract can be unilaterally amended after agreement.
I just think that contracts of adhesion (IIRC) should be illegal or unenforceable. Make me wet sign a document or go to a separate docusign at least, this click wrap is crap. Get me to affirmatively agree, not click OK till the install or setup completes. Otherwise I strongly disagree there’s actually a meeting of the minds. And if I can’t send back my suggested alterations for cross signatures, it’s not a valid contract either IMHO.
That said, we’ve decided to continue to screw people over as we all know.
legally responsible if their load isn’t secured?
kek
Smart TVs were supposed to be better than dumb TVs.
Now it’s the complete opposite.
Worst part is, now you can’t find a dumb TV anymore. The closest thing out there are “commercial signage displays” which are just dumb TVs with limited inputs and usually without remotes, but 25-50% more expensive because “commercial” (and because they won’t be able to continue making money by showing you ads and selling your data) and a lot of retailers won’t let you order one without a business account, or force you to order in bulk.
And every Neanderthal I complain to is like “but smart TVs have so many more features,” like, bro, I can make any TV the smartest fucking TV in the world by plugging it into the desktop PC I’m gonna keep right next to it anyway. All the “smart” bullshit just gets in the way. I’ve yet to encounter a smart TV UI that didn’t require a dozen button presses to change inputs and spend two seconds or more re-drawing the UI with EVERY INPUT because they put the cheapest processors they can find in these pieces of shit.
Commercial displays cost more because backlight testing and ratings double or triple. You’re paying more for longer uptime since your display is likely to run 12+ hours a day straight and not for 1-2 hours a day with an occasional 8+ hour usage. You’re also paying actual cost, but a lot of it really has to do with testing and materials that are built to survive consistent and frequent usage, plus centralized management. Lots of people assume it’s the same shit, but it’s completely different and it shows when you buy a consumer off the shelf display and put it in production.
Computer monitors are dumb tv
Good luck finding a 65 inch computer monitor
I mean, thanks for the link but, if you actually try to find it on Amazon for example it doesn’t exist. So that’s not terribly helpful.
It’s also three times the price of a 65 inch 4k TV.
No, the 65 inch 4K TV is three times cheaper because of the smart features. They sell the data they collect from you, and the ads.
oh no its not on amazon it must not be real
The thing is 5 years old so that’s hardly surprising. I just googled 65 inch monitor and this was the first hit.
Just checked Geizhals and apparently there’s none currently, the largest is the HP Omen X, 64.5". Close enough though I’d say. There’s 55 monitors 46" and higher but only 7 52" and higher.
At that size I’m obliged to ask if you don’t want a projector instead.
Projectors are so easy. Currently watching Hulu on an 85" screen.
as a projector owner myself, i would not say “so easy”. they are a lot more work to set up, are more unsightly in living spaces, require light control, require more maintenance and cleaning, and even after all that the picture quality is still never going to approach a decent HDR panel. It’s only really worth it if you need/want a 100”+ picture, otherwise you’d be better off with an 85” TV.
Not to mention many of the high end projectors now have the same smart tv features built in
Show me a 50 inch computer monitor with speakers and multiple hdmi inputs, and I’ll agree with you.
Here you are. Included everything 46"+ because 49" are common and the next category is 52" up where things get rare. Both of these are gigantic and have 4 HDMI ports. Neither have displayport which disqualifies them in my eyes because this kind of shit.
Why would you want speakers though. I mean computer monitors usually come with them but the less said about them the better.
Congratulations on finding a €1500 dumb TV.
Skipping the first couple because they’re ultrawide (probably not the best for TV usage) the cheapest one is the GIGABYTE AORUS FO48U. 2xHDMI, 1x DisplayPort, 1xUSB-C, about a thousand euroons. Expensive? Well, it’s OLED. So is the equally-priced LG UltraGear OLED 48GQ900-B, Three HDMI plus DisplayPort.
Also they’re not dumb TVs they don’t come with tuners, a PCIe version will run you about a hundred bucks, plus the rest of your media server. Or something like 20 bucks (seriously) for a receiver, more like 60 if you want a triple-tuner (DVB-C/T2/S2) that runs Linux (double-check that the bootloader is unlocked, though, can’t be arsed to). And yes of course they’re more expensive they’re not cross-financed by showing you ads. Do you want a TV or a billboard?
What I don’t get about smart TVs is why you can’t use it with your phone. That’s one of Kodi’s best features. You can just type using your phone keyboard. Typing with a TV remote is a fucking NIGHTMARE.
I have no experience with them, but FYI a bunch of people were recommending sceptre for dumb TVs in other threads.
Sceptre makes dumb TVs.
They are pretty decent too, for the price
I’ve heard that if you want a dumb TV, you buy a smart TV with input priority on the hdmi and never connect to the internet.
How accurate is that?
I wouldn’t know, as I’ve been blessed with a couple of dumb tvs from the golden age of dumb tvs for the last 10 years.
Some smart TVs need to be connected before they’ll even start.
The key thing is to make sure you look into that stuff before you buy.
My TV is from the before days, and when it dies I’m not sure what the plan will be. Possibly a large monitor at 3x the price.
The key thing is to make sure you look into that stuff before you buy.
Or better yet, buy it and then return it as defective, ideally repeatedly and gathering a whole bunch of other people to do the same en masse, until companies start losing so much money on this shit that they’re forced to be less shitty.
If only they weren’t so heavy…
Found the youngster or missed a sarcasm tag. I remember a time when my 50 inch was considered leading class for weighing “only” 60 lbs, my tvs before that one all weighed over 100 lbs (CRTs). I literally unironically can throw most tvs upto 65 inches just over my shoulder, and if the boxes weren’t so awkwardly big I could carry a few at a time. TVs may be a lot things but not heavy, most 43 inch tvs are under 20 lbs now.
My hisense google tv connected to an open wifi network and updated without being told to. The update broke CEC and hdmi arc. I cannot adequately express my rage at this moment.
Can’t you plug in your computer into an HDMI port and simply not use the “smart” features?
In most cases, no. You have to use the built in “smart” software to change inputs.
That sucks. I guess I gotta keep my TV running as long a possible then. It’s a smart TV, but I can change ports without the smart features. In fact the smart TV part of it is basically like another port, but I have set to use HDM1 as the default when starting up and I never have to look at the smart interface. TV is over 5 years old now, the smart interface probably runs like shit by now.
Yes, you absolutely can. Or you can use pihole to block ads/updates. Or you can use a raspberry pi with kodi. Or a streaming stick. Or you can use it normally.
Just make sure you buy from a store with a return policy that let’s you test the TV for your use case. Which in the EU is any online retailer, for 14 days.
There are tvs that wait a month before giving you a big manually dismissed popup about not being connected to the internet.
Any tv without internet access is a DumbTV™️, no?
So anybody who doesn’t have A FUCKING DESKTOP PC near their TV is a Neanderthal?
I have a smart TV from 2019 and it runs perfectly fine, it’s snappy and convenient. Switching inputs requires 2 button presses (3 if you don’t want to wait 3 seconds to auto-switch to the selected one) or I can automate it with home assistant for a “movie watching” scene for instance, for 0 button presses.
Plus you seem to completely misunderstand what digital signage TV are.
I have always opposed smart TVs. Most of my reasoning is because the UI is almost always dogshit slow because the hardware and software is thrown in as an afterthought. But I’ll add this to my reasoning for not getting a smart TV.
A signage TV with a streaming stick/box is perfectly fine for what I need. Jellyfin does not care what I’m playing.
Edit: Also, I did not even notice that there was no option to reject this. It is just a close button. There is no way this shit is enforceable.
I haven’t looked into it, but there’s got to be some open source firmware for a lot of these TVs, right? To improve the UI and remove all spyware and bloatware?
The worst part is that all these Smart TVs run Linux, whose GPL license was explicitly designed to prevent this sort of user-hostile bullshit. Unfortunately, because the Linux contributors decided to stick with version 2 of the license instead of converting to version 3, it’s stuck with a loophole that allows companies to get away with this abuse.
It’s a goddamned travesty.
The GPL ensures user software freedom for us to remove this crap by requiring them to share their source code. Using Linux doesn’t mean they have to follow the GPL unless they make modifications to it.
You need every software contributors to agree to a license change unless the license gives an upgrade option. Most contributors had no choice but to use GPLv2 as it wasn’t “GPLv2-or-later” to start with, maybe it was posdible at one point but they didn’t want to anyway.
The GPL ensures user software freedom for us to remove this crap by requiring them to share their source code. Using Linux doesn’t mean they have to follow the GPL unless they make modifications to it.
That’s not quite the issue.
First of all, the GPL requires you to make the source available if you distribute the software, whether you modify it or not. And in fact TV manufacturers do provide source code, if you dig through their websites to find the disused basement lavatory with the sign saying “beware of the leopard.”
Second, the issue is that the source code isn’t actually going to work if you try to compile it and install it on the device, because they have DRM to prevent anything other than what the manufacturer has cryptographically signed from being allowed to run. See also: Tivoization.
That’s correct. My response was intended to point out proprietary software can run on Linux and GPL doesn’t apply.
I have read arguments in favor of GPL v2 over v3 and found them unconvincing.
Linux will never go to GPLv3 because Linus is pussywhipped by the Foundation and it’s sponsors
Smart TV was always a dumb idea. Better to control your own equipment.
They are. But not for customers.
There is nothing so pure and good that rampant greed can’t ruin it.
Technology in general is supposed to make our lives easier. It seems many things these days do the opposite.
I wish there were dumb options but since they’re all subsidised with loads of ads, they’re either unaffordable or plain unavailable. They just don’t make them for the consumer market anymore, there’s no demand for it. So they took advantage of that and market the dumb TVs as business TVs at huge markups, like 5+ grands for basic 4K no HDR no VRR no nothing, and they won’t even sell it to you without a registered business account.
They are better, but you foolishly assumed that they meant better for the consumer, not better for the seller.
Here in Brazil, EULAs (they are called adhesion contracts here) can only deal with the way service is provided and cannot limit consumer rights in any way. Even if the contract has these types of clauses, they are considered void by default.
These types of things never fly here.
The same is mostly true in the US. The companies use them to scare people into settlements. But it does depend on the state.
Binding arbitration is not only a thing, but has been upheld by the courts as enforceable.
It depends on your state. The verbiage that works on one state doesn’t necessarily work in another.
I wonder why Roku make you sign this agreement out of the blue. I think they’re about to drop either an acquisition announcement, or news they were hacked.
I of course signed it like an idiot. I hate this cyberpunk present.
My money is on a data breech - happens all the damn time.
Man if a hacker wants to break into my Roku to watch my streams I don’t really mind. Would be kinda cool to see what their preferences are on what they watch. Just don’t use my profile, that’s an act of war.
Data breach doesn’t mean hackers know what you watch, it means hackers know your name, address, and payment info
Lmao it’s a joke bruh
Was it your or you’re 8 year old who was just trying to watch some cartoons? 🤔
You are right there is something coming though
Just an FYI, although they aren’t physical products like this Roku, many apps and digital services have added the very same binding arbitration clauses recently.
The McDonald’s app for one. I ended up deleting the app after it tried to force me into binding arbitration and I didn’t want to go through to opt-out process for marginally cheaper, shitty food, so I just deleted the app altogether and haven’t eaten there since November.
Watch out for it if you drive for doordash or ubereats as well. I opted out of both, although they claimed you couldn’t opt out in an new contract when you didn’t before (a bunch of BS, if the current contract you are about to sign says it supercedes all others, you can’t make the lack of an opt-out on a previous contract hold up).
On-going services might make sense for these shitty enough clauses, but to be strong armed into it for physical product you bought free and clear … Disgusting.
It’s like all these companies are locking themselves down to minimize legal exposure because they know that their services and products are getting more awful or something.
I legit don’t know how binding arbitration can be legal.
Agreeing to terms of actual usage of the product, I understand. Like for a pogo stick, assuming your own risk of injury.
But I don’t know how they can legally just say that suing is impossible.
NOTHING SUSPICIOUS HERE. DO NOT FEAR. SIGN AWAY FUTURE LEGAL PROTECTION BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING TO FEAR.
Once again, Stallman was right. (Also Corey Doctorow)
What even the point of making laws and regulations if corporate can just force you to waive all your rights?
A court wouldn’t uphold this
and by the time the court throws it out the TV I paid for has been disabled for months and I’m out a ton of money and time. A lot of people will just agree because defending your rights in this country is very expensive and cumbersome. They’re counting on this idea.
There’s a nonzero chance the SCOTUS would.
Whats the point of laws when they just get in the way of corporate interests and exploitation.
This. Someone please think of the corporations
Will someone please think of the CEO’s bonus?? (…Nah, they can get bent.)
Don’t forget the poor shareholders as well. I don’t know what we’d do without them
That’s why unalienable rights are so important.
That’s one big difference between the US and the EU law. In the EU, they can’t.
thats what the law is becoming. a way to enforce the will of the corporate state.
Because the laws and regulations have been influenced by lobbying by large corporations to suit them best.
I still can’t comprehend why American just accepting that “lobbyists” are a normal thing.
Isn’t that literally bribery in broad daylight to influence laws making decisions? And the fact that a corporate can “sponsor” politicians. You’re supposed to making those laws to keep the corporate in line, not taking their handout.
Are there any other countries with the same “lobbying” practice?
Sections 1(F) and 1(L) seem like the only ways out/around of this. (IANAL; the bolding emphasis was done by me.)
F. Small Claims. You or Roku may pursue any Claim, except IP Claims, in a small-claims court instead of through arbitration if (i) the Claim meets the jurisdictional requirements of the small claims court and (ii) the small claims court does not permit class or similar representative actions or relief.
L. 30-Day Right to Opt Out. You have the right to opt out of arbitration by sending written notice of your decision to opt out to the following address by mail: General Counsel, Roku Inc., 1701 Junction Court, Suite 100, San Jose, CA 95112 within 30 days of you first becoming subject to these Dispute Resolution Terms. Such notice must include the name of each person opting out and contact information for each such person, the specific product models, software, or services used that are at issue, the email address that you used to set up your Roku account (if you have one), and, if applicable, a copy of your purchase receipt. For clarity, opt-out notices submitted via any method other than mail (including email) will not be effective. If you send timely written notice containing the required information in accordance with this Section 1(L), then neither party will be required to arbitrate the Claims between them.
Any lawyers out there who can speak towards the three bolded parts?
I’m really surprised about this. Amazon got called on their arbitration clause so much that they removed it because it was so expensive.
Roku is practically asking for people to do the same to them. They could even do it about this clause, IMO. (I am not a lawyer.) This is a really dumb clause to have these days.
The real question is what is Roku doing that might necessitate a jury trial in the first place.
The answer is spying and selling all your data to advertisers. Using ACR they can tell everything passing through that box and display adverts accordingly. Just what you want when watching a DVD.
Send them a letter via registered mail stating that upon receipt of said letter they waive their right to waive your rights.
That sounds like some sovereign citizen thing
Similar things have worked in countries that aren’t so under the thrall of the mighty corporation. I recall some guy in … Russia? who struck out and reworded a bunch of penalty clauses for a credit card offer he got and mailed it back to the bank, which accepted it and issued the card. Cue much hilarity as he racked up a bunch of charges and then got it thrown out in court. (Actually, here’s a link.. They eventually settled out of court for an undisclosed sum.)
Anyway, I live in Australia so my response to all these kinds of attempts at removal of my consumer rights is a drawn out “yeah, nahhhh”
deleted by creator
Uno reverse card
