Microsoft, doing it’s part to make the world a better place.
No it won’t.
240 million grandmas, cheapskate businesses, and cash-strapped public schools will continue to use whatever operating system their computers already have, forever, until they break, security implications be damned.
Windows
10XPTook this picture a couple of days ago:
JSYK a lot of embedded devices use XP and 7, and some of those manufacturers pay for extended support. The military also pays for extended support for XP
But yeah, most of those devices are not patched and vulnerable AF.
I always laugh at, after being in the military and a government employee, things being marketed as military grade. So what, it runs on windows server 2003 and hasn’t been in production for 20 years?
From what little I’ve seen, there’s a divide between old and new tech.
Like how headset visual tracking for attack copters was a thing already back when Nintendo released the Virtual Boy, alongside the fact that there is still equipment in service running software that had to be millennium bug patched.
My mother-in-law ran an Army reserve center in the 1990s. They were still using DOS once XP came out because the Army wouldn’t pay for the upgrade.
I was aware of that, but had imagined that newer machines would have slowly migrated to something else. I’m also always astonished by the fact these are running full OSes.
No manufacturer wants to take the risk to reinvent a wheel that may be less secure.
I mean, yeah it would be ideal of the manufacturer created their own OS but I also know that nearly everyone hires the cheapest, least skilled devs for projects like this.
And not all of them are full OSs, XP had a bunch of creative ways you could remove system components to make basically a kiosk with almost no other functions.
i saw a kiosk once booting opensuse
This is a huge business opportunity for someone with the know-how. They should offer a consulting service that does the following:
- Catalogs the software your company is using.
- Identifies which ones have native Linux versions, which ones work well under WINE, and which ones will need to be replaced with either a different native application or an online equivalent.
- Installs and configures Linux with a Windows-like UI on your old systems, and gets them set up with the replacement software.
Offer a support contract that severely undercuts anything Microsoft is
gougingselling. Offer basic training, too.Anyone who does that can make bank.
Would also need to get a burner phone number w/ answering machine to take calls from 240 million grandmas, cheapskate businesses and cash-strapped public schools for any & all tech support questions until the end of time, because if there was an issue with system stability in any way whatsoever, or if the router went down or the printer stopped working, they’d assume it was the fault of ‘the guy who changed everything’.
Linux is great & everything, but this sounds like a recipe for utter disaster, not a way to make an easy buck.
I can’t agree with this more. People like to sell Linux as a magic bullet, but it does not and will not everything everyone needs without maintenance and people really like to hand wave or downplay that need.
Sure, you could find a solution for what they’re using now. What happens when they need something else and they’re so tech illiterate that they don’t even know what you did to their machine? They wouldn’t even know how to install new software, and if they did, they wouldn’t know they need to click the Linux version, etc. It’s not always about feasibility and available options, it’s often about the fact that people just won’t fucking know what to do. Even if you assume there are enough options available, they won’t know how to do so.
And every step Microsoft takes to shoot themselves in the foot, and every step Linux takes to make this easier, everyone comes screaming about how much this could change things.
But until Linux has a HUGE market share - like in the 30-70 percent range - developers are not going to take it seriously and alleviate this process. Even with how well MacOS does, this is not even a solved problem entirely there - there are still hang ups and still software that doesn’t get released for mac. Linux would have to pass where Apple is today for this to become remotely accessible to an every day person.
And even THEN there’s the question of different Linux distros.
Most people only need internet access. Look at Chromebooks.
While I don’t really disagree, look at the market share of Chromebooks. If “most people” only needed internet access, “most people” would be on Chromebooks by now. It’s not like they’re unknown anymore.
Not really how the market works. Inertia is huge, brand image (Apple) is huge, social pressure (Apple) is huge, simply not knowing is huge. The newcomer always has the disadvantage to get converts. (Not to mention many of the people that only need internet have iPads only.)
Yes, but Chromebooks are far from “newcomers” these days. They’ve been out a while. Many people who grew up using them in schools are now making their own purchasing decisions, etc.
I lived in this town and there was this"computer and pawn" place. They did this to people’s computers. I constantly had people come into the computer place I worked at very confused. Not knowing why they needed a password to install things, where is Microsoft office, how do I print, etc. Most of these people didn’t have the money to put windows back on, but, those that did, did real quick. All this did was scare people away. If we started replacing Linux on people’s computers it needs to come with a intro tech support plan and a short intro class explaining the basics.
At this point the people that benefit the most easily are those who only need email, Web browsing and or are old. People who work off their machine are going to use Windows and that former demographic usually just use their phones or a tablet now. At least in the US
Yeah hard pass.
Will I take advantage of the heavily discounted used market this causes? Maybe. (Assuming they manage to actually convince people they should move to 11, which also sucks.) But there’s good reason not to be IT for people who can’t manage it themselves. It’s a huge headache.
Easy fix: don’t offer support
More expensive easy fix: contract with a call center in India to do “support” for you.
Edit: some spelling and added some more text marked with * next to it below
Uhhhhh no. That would not work. Sorry to be so blunt, but I’ll explain why it wont:
No gradeschool anywhere is going to simply move to Linux from Windows because their systems are outdated. Microsoft plays a huge roll in the educational systems around the world. Most often they will offer their software for free, as long as the students are trained on Microsoft programs. It’s considered to be a long term investment by Microsoft. Most school boards cannot simply drop Windows for Linux.
A better business opportunity would be to just mass buy these outdated computers, get Rufus to remove the TPM 2.0 requirement, reinstall Windows, resell PCs.
- (This might be illegal thought. Using Rufus to alter the ISO then selling the PC with the modified OS might make Microsoft mad, but you could argue your preventing ewaste/saving working tech from landfills/being sent to Africa for “recycling”. Could be a very good argument to get the public and courts on your side) *
Do you think someone who uses their PC for Facebook is going to want to learn how to use Linux? What will they do if/when they break it?
2 major and key difference between Linux and Windows for the average user is:
1.Windows protects the user from breaking the OS.
- Peripherals and everything else just work on windows. Everything for the average user, it just works. Plug it in, and Windows takes care of it.
For the average person who just wants to turn their PC on and use it, Windows/MacOS just work.
Or even simpler business idea: Offer a reinstallation of Windows without TPM for the user for a fee.
- (again could be illegal) *
Unfortunately just because ~%4 of PC users want Linux to be the norm, doesn’t mean it will.
Support is a major cost/pain point, that Linux pushers just don’t get.
They’ve never worked in enterprise (or hell, even in SMB IT). Moving from windows doesn’t make sense. It’s a lot if cost, up front, to take on lots of risk.
I’m not sure Linux will ever significantly compete with Windows for the desktop. At a minumim it would require a single shell to become dominant, in addition to all the compatibility issues you mention.
Then there’s management: Windows has SCOM, with a well-established app packaging/distribution model, settings config, user management (AD/Exchange), etc, etc.
Linux is fantastic as a base OS for other stuff. Like Proxmox/TrueNAS, or to use as a server with containerized services. There’s a million ways Linux is the answer, a much better one, than Windows - largely in the server/services hosting realm
You never used Linux then. There are well defined packages in the way Windows is trying to get with their store apps and chocolatey can mimic if you build the packages. You could also look up containers, flatpaks etc. Similar to how Windows has msis and store apps and exes.
Linux has Foreman plus puppet. Or chef or Ansible. You can also use those on Windows.
The idea that a company could not decide their shell standards or their support company or people for Linux is like saying they can’t handle the competition in fleet vehicles or cloud providers or pen companies.
Like he said as the second sentence of his comment…
You’ve never worked in enterprise then.
These solutions are skipping the majority of the core problems he mentioned. And even the problem you’re trying to solve here isn’t even fully solved by this solution. You’re taking a narrow sliver of one point in his argument and arguing about that and just tossing out the rest. Even if we accepted your proposal, Linux still isn’t enough of an answer here.
What are the core problems I am skipping? That people like to bitch about Microsoft just like they bitch about gas prices but don’t take any steps to address the issue?
Look we suck it up on Windows for very specific legacy software, but every year more and more LoB apps are web apps, either we write them that way or they’re cloud versions. These all work fine on Linux and Mac, you do not need Windows.
We are even seeing companies like Autodesk provide some products on Mac, and there are competitors on Linux too.
If you actually used Microsoft in the enterprise you would also be up to speed on how they are pushing against “over management” of the fleet, and you should just use update rings and intune and stop wasting time with SCCM / MCM / Whatever it’s called this year. This argument about managibility is Microsoft 2005, not Microsoft 2025. Linux has more management now than Microsofts modern management suite, by design. And if you’re using 3rd party to fix that on windows, you are not just fighting Microsoft but you can not then disregard 3rd party on Linux.
The problem with this argument is not that I am saying you can do everything you can do with Windows on Linux, just like there’s a lot you can’t do on Windows you can on Linux. I am saying that it’s practically like Dodge vs Toyota trucks. There’s way more of an overlap than people like to admit.
Maybe there is a specific app you all are thinking of that you need Windows for, but I don’t actually think the average person needs Windows anymore except inertia. And the needs are going down as more stuff is cloud available.
Lol, ok, sure,right.
Show me a company that’s willing to take the risks you’re talking about. Because it may work today, but what happens tomorrow when they acquire another company with systems that simply aren’t linux-friendly
Laughable.
Go home, let the adults talk. Kids like you always come in with grandiose ideas thinking everyone else just doesn’t “get it”. No, we’ve seen these ideas, but there are risks, requirements, etc that you simply aren’t aware of, yet in your hubris think you know better.
“Never used Linux”, really son? Had my first UNIX class when you were shitting in your diaper, and was doing Fortran on a Sperry Rand UNIVAC well before you were born.
Any other snarky comebacks?
Oh, Linux now has package management… Like Windows did pretty much 30 years ago. Wow, yea, you really told me.
Now wait, when you pull a package, which shell is it expecting? How are dependencies controlled in your business environment? Oh, you have to build that in your distribution system? Why would anyone switch, do all that work, when they already have a Windows infrastructure that does the same?
Oh, wait, where’s CAD? How about supporting, software with license dongles that control CNC machines? Oh, yea, practically no vendor supports Linux this way.
Are you paying for all your users to learn a new system? How about all the poor performance from end users because things work differently now?
How about the thousands of spreadsheets in a company that now get mangled by Open/Libre, let alone the inability of either to handle tables (which basically every Excel spreadsheet has).
Tell me, what do you do when you meet that must-have app, with zero choice (say, regulatory compliance) that lacks a Linux option. Oh, and doesn’t like RDP?
Let’s go into a legal environment and push Linux… Oh you’ll love that.
The way you overlook basically everything speaks volumes.
I’ve been hearing “Year of the Linux Desktop” since, well, forever. After 25 years it still ain’t happened.
@FonsNihilo @kescusay this is painfully true. I remember some well meaning techies wired up an entire lab for the school district once, included free repurposed PCs running Linux. Didn’t take long before the district paid HP to take all of it away and give us the crappiest speced machines tax money could buy. But hey, that deal gave the football team money to AstroTurf the field (with a donation from HP)🤦♂️
Your post reminded me. I worked tech support for years at an ISP and we would not help people with Linux systems. Only Windows or Macs. Android on a cell but only help with connecting to Wi-Fi and very basic settings up email if they used the ISP email.
I can totally see why thru refused Linux.
In my opinion, Linux’s biggest weakness is that it doesn’t idiot proof itself. That’s why it will never go beyond running a server that only qualified technicians will ever be able to touch. That’s why businesses/people who don’t want to trouble shoot pcs get Windows or MacOS. Linux is not for them, yet.
Unless a enterprise version of some distro ever launches (that is for users, not servers) and has a usesble alternative to the MMC to mass control user groups and idiot proof the hell out of the distro, for the average person it won’t be useable before too long.
I used to work in IT, and even on heavly locked down laptops, people still found ways to corrupt the OS/programs on Windows (Chrome, Outlook,MS office suit, ect). Someone would complain their outlook is slow/doesn’t work, and you find out they managed to get outlook to reload 20k+ emails every time they close and reopen the app. Or their chrome won’t load a web page, and you find out chromes got 20gigs of web pages/pictures/cookies, ect that they never cleared. Dates on some files go back over a decade. I even had someone who managed to change their default boot drive somehow. I don’t know if that one ever got resolved.
If people can’t even manage to maintain a web browser or a desktop email app, there is no way they will be able to use Linux. Linux requires a little more then basic knowledge to use properly. I’m pretty literate with tech/PCs, but I ruined my first few Linux distros just by trying to set it up the way I wanted it set up. Even now, a few years later, I still have tons to learn. I still feel like an amature with Linux, and I use it most days.
I think your info is out of date, at least from what I see. Schools are going to Chromebooks because that’s all the budget allows. I think it’s going to be scary when these kids enter the workforce and can’t use Windows office.
I could be. Haven’t been to grade school in 12 years.
Been to post secondary again recently and they were all running Windows/MacOS.
But my argument still remains, Chromebook are locked down versions of Andriod. Very idiot proof, and from what I hear, decently reliable. But they all have/are capable of running the Microsoft office Suite. They are heavily tied to Microsoft still. Windows isn’t the dominant OS because it’s the best OS. It’s because it’s runs “flawlessly” with the Suite, and overall for the average user, it just works. Not perfect, but good enough to not want to change it. If you want to get away from Windows, you need to get away from Microsoft environments. What Microsoft has done is everyone who went to school in the last 30 years learned Windows, they learned the Microsoft suite. I still hear “open it in word” all the time. I was taught to use PowerPoint/Word in gradeschool, excel/office in Post secondary. My younger sister graduated a couple years ago, and she was taught the suite aswell. She used Windows at school, and her MacOS at home.
How do you break away from something you were programmed to use? I can type up an essay so much after in word then any Linux/MacOS alternative. Simply because I have decades of experience with word and with Windows keyboard shortcuts. I think most people who use office for work are in the same boat as me.
And these kids are already in the workforce. 2 years ago I was in IT, and even people calling help desk who were early 20’s and they had no clue how to even troubleshoot their iPhone/andriod. They don’t want to, it’s easier just to call a help desk, and there are help desks for everything now.
Sigh, yes everyone knows that ChromeOS is built on linux. That’s not what people mean when they say running linux.
AFAIK Chromebooks can run Office 365 (the online one, whatever it’s called now). Microsoft had to do that to try to keep Office relevant and accessible.
How do you break away from something you were programmed to use?
You don’t, you get the next generation to use your product first. They start with chromebooks in elementary school now. That’s the first computer kids will have and likely have all the way to grade 12 for school (after that is who knows what). Kids today will be programmed to use Chromebooks, not windows. That’s my point.
Sigh, I know andriod is based on Linux, yet work differently and one has been mass adopted by the average user and can use it pretty well (Andriod).
Andriod, Windows, and MacOS/iOS I guess because we’re covering all angles are all mass adopted software that is relatively locked down, idiot proofed, and does alot of background cleanup /maintenance. I guess the point I failed to get across is if people want a mass adaptation of Linux, people have to learn to troubleshoot/Linux needs an idiot proofed distro that is easy to use for beginners, does alot of maintenance automatically, and feels natural to use, and offers quick and painless solutions, that the average user is capable of doing. Also the more it’s tied into Microsoft/Google the harder it will be to move away and find alternatives with the same ease of use. Like even the first part of Linux can be overwhelming for beginners. What distro do you pick? It’s not as simple as install Linux and your PC just works.
Have you used a modern version of Linux or Windows? You can basically use most Linuxes like Android with a guide app store, and there’s almost no way to break it. Windows also will still let you be admin and let you break it. Neither is particularly easy to break anymore.
Peripherals certainly do not just work on Windows. More and more I fight with getting anything to work on a clean Windows OS install. First I have to go find a network driver and copy it via USB. Then hope Windows will find drivers from there, which often it doesn’t get good ones for say Nvidia. Printers often take me to the manufacturer website and hope. For things like mice or Wi-Fi adapters Linux just works, same hunt for less standard stuff.
Maybe I just deal with a wider array of hardware but to say it plug and play on windows and not Linux is just not true.
For someone who just uses Facebook…there is no learning Linux. I moved my mom from XP to XFCE and Firefox just copied right over. She has a lot less issues with Enterprise Linux than she did with XP and Facebook still just works like 8 years later.
Have you used a modern version of Linux or Windows? You can basically use most Linuxes like Android with a guide app store, and there’s almost no way to break it. Windows also will still let you be admin and let you break it. Neither is particularly easy to break anymore.
It’s still something that can happen. I’ve run into an issue trying to install Ubuntu onto a PC which worked fine on the live USB but installed the incorrect Nvidia driver and ended up failing to boot. Took me a whole day, even as a software engineer, to fix it and even then, that’s just to get it to display, I had to do a lot more digging to even get CUDA to run on it since I was still using an incorrect driver. I’m fine with that but I can’t imagine most people are.
Even if Windows doesn’t get the best driver for the job, more often than not it will still somewhat function for the hardware that most people use.
It’s a lot better than it used to be but there’s still issues here and there. For the average user, better the devil you know than the one you don’t.
Well it’s not like Windows hasn’t bricked some pcs with their driver updates. It does just happen sometimes. The argument I’m making is if I went to Burger King and every time I went I was disappointed in the food quality, price and speed of service I would eventually risk Wendys.
Heck my family was GM but after years of breakdowns and getting stranded by 3 different GM cars and weird / bad performance in a 4th, we changed car manufacturers.
Sometimes you ought to give up on the Devil you know if it’s costing you too much money and time.
On an individual level, having a computer is better than not having one. Even if you need a different OS.
On a societal level, we should want to limit both ewaste and insecure OSs. We could legislate MS and other vendors not to do what Microsoft is doing here. But we probably don’t want to legislate updates for 20 years or something. (maybe we do IDK). The more likely thing is kicking known EOL OSs off the internet, but then we’re back to ewaste.
I get your analogy but it’s a way larger jump going from Windows to Linux versus McDonald’s to Linux. To bring it back to what we were talking about, I think it’s more that the switch might end up costing more money and time because realistically, most people are gonna disregard the EOL status because “it still works and I can still use it”. Those who do switch are probably those who require or want an upgrade of some form.
Yes, I use 2 modern versions of Linux. Ubuntu, and SteamOS. I have broken both several times. Granted, I was trying some more complicated stuff, but I still managed to break them.
Windows while you can still corrupt it, has more then 1 method already pre-installed to help recover data in emergency, while not the best, there already there, and if they work, they will get the job done.
Your response about your Windows installation is entirely a nitpicky you problem, that isn’t a problem for 99% of people, or it is by design.
Don’t want to plug in a USB driver with your wifi drivers? Plug in an ethernet cable. Windows already has REALTEK/Intel network drivers. It can automatically download your wifi drivers for you. Windows doesn’t get you the latest GPU drivers on purpose. New drivers can be a little unstable, or have some bugs, so Windows delays adding those to Windows updates, because Microsoft doesn’t want to launch unstable updates. Now for your final comment about how you moved your mom over. I’m calling BS/she has had a tech sons help. Based on your biase to Linux, i’m going to say there is much more to that story. No learning curve from chrome/Explorer to Firefox? No issues or performance loss? When the rare time occurs, can she install a program she is trying to get?
Literally the statement was just Facebook. She doesn’t install software, nor did she on Windows. She uses Facebook. She never used Explorer so Firefox on XP to Firefox on Linux was no learning. The performance was better on Linux.
I have corrupted Windows plenty of times over the years. You’re just used to Windows so intuitively know how to fix it or not break it again.
The problem with modern computers is many don’t take a ethernet cable. They only have Wi-Fi. Maybe you are buying ones speced with a NIC but that’s a special order for most laptops, and likewise I can special order for Linux.
No, some Laptops exclusively don’t have Ethernet, but come with pre-installed wifi drivers. Worst case scenario you get a USB to ethernet adapter. Again, ethernet drivers are pre-installed. This entire point is just you making the problems and crying about them, even though solutions are easier to apply then it is to create this problem.
Also regarding your mother and your argument for me.
You said you moved her over, my entire argument is regular people have no idea how to do stuff like that alone. Your mother did not install or maintain the distro. It seems you do. So that entire argument doesn’t really have a leg to stand on, as it about non tech people working with tech without help.
Also what is your comment about me and Windows? Windows isn’t hard to break, but you need to know how to do it. To the regular people who don’t even what the control panel is will have an extremely hard time breaking Windows. I know how to break it, so I avoid breaking it. I don’t mess with Windows much anymore, I mess with Linux and I’m unintentionally breaking stuff kinda often, while just trying to make my Linux distros function in a way simular to what I’m used to on Windows.
Your arguments are grasping at straws at best.
The point is, if you buy a pre set up laptop with Linux the drivers are pre installed too. You cannot take a clean Linux install and not compare to a clean Windows install.
As to my Mom, she didn’t set up Windows either. In either case you’re paying someone to set it up if you’re like her. Just because you already learned Windows doesn’t make Linux harder, just different. Do you think an enterprise is not going to have IT in both cases? It’s not like the users are setting anything.
I think you don’t have any idea on what modern Linux desktop is doing. For most people, installing any sort of drivers on Linux is something of the past. If you use a beginner’s friendly distro like Linux Mint or PopOS stuff like Nvidea drivers will be taken care of or you’re guided through it. Mint offers Timeshift out of the box and guides you to set it up for easy restores may you break your system one day (or an update does).
In theory, the store has virtually every application your version supports and that you ever want to use. No hunting on the internet etc. With Flatpaks, even dependency issues (however rare nowadays) are essentially a thing of the past. The user doesn’t need to know what that means, they can just click install on their application store as they’re already familiar with on their mobile device.
Doing more “complicated” stuff and breaking it is just simply your fault then. I have worked end user customer support and repair for a few years and shit like that happens all the time on Windows. Very few clean or wholly functional Windows installations I have seen. The UAC just presents you “yes/no” and install whatever the fuck you want. People click yes on everything.
I have a little headphone amp that has always been a huge fight to get to work on Windows with its drivers, but on Linux I later realized, wait, it just worked. Since Windows 10 drivers have been much better on Windows too, credit where it is due.
Linux has made enormous strides the last couple of years of becoming more general user friendly. And it’s only getting better.
Does this mean it’s all roses and happiness? No, of course not. Once a driver doesn’t quite work and you don’t have the Mint driver utility to help you out it’s a bit of a pain. You don’t need the CLI on desktop at all nowadays, but guides on how to do things usually are, because it’s universal. Problem is, the CLI scares people. Linux DEs are not Windows. It’s simply not the same, however much Mint is friendly to it, or Zorin’s efforts, it’s still different. There’s no hardware compatibility guarantees on any system, if you’re not using a Tuxedo, System76 or Framework system. App compatibility and sometimes there’s no app available. Wine and Bottles work pretty well, but that’s a little more advanced.
It’s not a drop-in replacement. That’s just how it is.
In an enterprise and business environment it’s still tricky. For personal use for a user that will happily use a Chromebook, they can use a suitable Linux distro (that’s literally what ChromeOS is btw, it being able to run Android apps was added later, it’s not Android). Yeah, don’t install Arch or god forbid, Gentoo lmao (unless you wanna have a laugh). If they do email, web-browsing, etc, and they are okay with some change, then Mint will most likely serve them pretty well.
Also, Linux runs Chrome just fine? However much it pains me, I can even install Edge right from the store lol.
I think it’s just you don’t understand what I am trying to say.
I’m not going to respond to your essay you wrote when most of your points were off topic, or you took mine out of context/didn’t understand entirely what I was trying to say.
I understand what you were trying to say just fine and have responded to all of it. You choosing to ignore it doesn’t make that less so.
Anyone who does that can make bank.
See, the key flaw in your plan is expecting companies to shell out to upgrade their systems. Putting aside organizations who’s infrastructure can’t realistically transfer to a new system without scrapping it entirely, pretty much every business will run their systems until they have literally no other choice (ie it is functionally unusable/affecting sales) instead of “losing money” upgrading. MS stopping updates won’t push them over that line, at least not for a while.
… pretty much every business will run their systems until
Cousin Vinny gives them a little taste of ransomware and reminds them your upgrade plan is actually a great deal
Meh, ransomware won’t really drive an upgrade plan. That’s what backup is for.
Any business incompetent enough to get owned by ransomware without a recovery plan isn’t exactly the type with $ to spare for a migration.
I mean, yeah, if ethics are no barrier, you could probably make it work, hah. That said, there are much better money makers at that point than being tech support for businesses to switch to Linux.
That’s actually a decent idea if people are using boilerplate windows software. Unfortunately institutional software is unlikely to cross over, and even if similar software can be found to replace private users’ needs, there is going to be resistance to change. This doesn’t even touch anyone using specialized software. The resistance will be commensurate with the differences in workflow and usage between the windows and Linux software.
I mean, the whole point is people don’t want to change. The only way you’d win people over easily is directly cloning their windows setup.
And there’s a cost to that change. Reduced performance. Could easily be measured in lost $ or increased costs.
Yeah, and it’s likely way less costly to the company to just buy a new win 11 computer than it is to pay an employee to train on new software. Not to mention the cost of paying someone to find someone to do a Linux conversion, paying the person doing the conversion, and the loss of productivity as the person learns. Not to mention the cost of changing IT infrastructure, hiring new IT people to manage those machines, etc.
There’s a reason companies don’t just switch at the drop of the hat. There’s too much commitment and institutional knowledge already and moving is not a simple change.
Companies won’t pay. Even SMB.
There’s way too much stuff that only runs on windows, their users are used to windows.
You’re telling them to spend a lot of money to transition, and take on a lot of risk.
It just ain’t gonna happen.
Look at the current VMware issue to see what companies will do.
I feel the issue is if you’re successful with this idea and get on radar of Microsoft, they will make sure to snatch away all deals from you by bidding even lower. They have money to lose. Small firms generally don’t.
ROFL, and for a half of that cost and none of the risk, companies will just drop in new windows computers and keep the status quo…
My 76 y/o spouse loves Linux Mint. The 2017-bought desktop was deemed insufficient for Windows 11 and now runs Mint.
If all they use is a web browser and solitaire then putting them on Linux is super easy. Got my dad on Mint for years now. I recommend KPatience for solitaire needs.
If all they use is a web browser and solitaire, they should consider a tablet. Even as a techie, with many devices, I spend the most time using my iPad because it works so well for “media consumption”.
Of course it’s only 6 years old, slowing down, and is no longer supported with patches, so maybe that’s not a solution. At least it’s less to go in a landfill
yeah, other than the obvious “haha-ing in Linux” (which… I also use Linux) - the REAL answer is people will just keep using the outdated Windows until THAT computer dies it’s natural death.
Also third world countries where people can’t afford to spend their yearly salary on a mouse.
When that time comes, would that create a period of insane amounts of scams?
Yes.
I wish you were right. Instead what we will likely see is an increase in year to year E-waste until the majority is phased out into land fills.
I dunno, computers aren’t like phones where your provider is offering you incentives to chuck your old one every 2 years. There’ll be an increase of waste from businesses for sure, but I think most people don’t really pay attention to their security updates and will just keep using their pcs until they need a newer one for personal reasons (playing newer games, old one bricked, etc)
0patch offers microcode patching for EOL windows systems, I have a subscription for my Win7 gaming box and will be getting one for my win10 daily driver, because FUCK win11.
It’s a good company, they’ve won several bounties from Microsoft for 0-day fixes and have had their code published in official microsoft updates.
And tech-savvy windows users(those who need it) switch to windows 10 LTSC iot edition
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I’m seriously thinking of trying Linux when Windows 11 is forced. My computer has the specs to run it, but I’m just tired of Windows and Microsoft.
Unless you run some really niche software or are a heavy gamer, you’ll likely have no problems and enjoy it. Most software that you need for daily use has a FOSS equivalent that’s equal or better. Usually those are also available straight from the package manager (if not there, then most likely Flatpak).
Just stick with a well supported distro like Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, or PopOS, and it’ll be super easy.
I’m actually looking forward to the perfectly good Linux boxes that are bound to be popping up at yard sales or on ebay once that happens.
a heavy gamer
Why I am still hesitant to make the leap. Not just do I mostly use my PC for gaming but I have a tendency to jump into a new game for like 3 weeks and then off to the next like the horrid ADHD having fuck that I am. I don’t want to possibly have to work to make a game work each and every time. I know its gotten a lot better about that but still. Convivence has me trapped yo.
I was in the same boat. But Valve seriously made it easy to install and play games on Steam. If you have a spare drive, give it a shot.
Things I had to do were to turn on proton in the steam settings and installing vulkan drivers for my AMD card.
I honestly might with my next build this summer.
In a desktop (which is what you want for gaming anyways) why not? Easy enough to slot in a new drive and dual boot from there, no need to muck about with partitions like with a single-drive laptop.
If it doesn’t work out, oh well, go back to Windows. But maybe Linux is finally there, and you’ll find you don’t need to go back
Oh it’s you again, Mr. Edible Friend…
A couple days ago I posted a comment on the negatives on Linux, but honestly, if you play normal games on Steam, like not some weird obscure Atari 2600 emulators, you can try Linux fearlessly.
99% of games work on Linux, I personally have played many Steam and non-Steam games, such as Cyberpunk 2077, War Thunder, world of tanks, rimworld, factorio, Overwatch etc. All ran flawlessly for me, and I even have an NVIDIA GPU, which is supposedly very bad on Linux!
I was surprised by this.
Admittedly, I haven’t played many video games in the past few years but I was a little disappointed when the list of Steam games for Linux was quite short.
Then I read about Proton. The first Windows-only game I tried worked great so I’m happy.
I play older games on a 1060 so I don’t have a good sense of what the performance is compared to playing directly on Windows though.
I don’t want to possibly have to work to make a game work each and every time.
as long as it’s not a competitive multiplayer, it’s more likely than not that it’ll work out of the box.
Check ProtonDB. The overwhelming majority of games work just fine on Linux with Steam’s Proton. I encounter a game that genuinely will not work on Linux only like once or twice a year.
How is graphics card stuff with them, all okay in terms of drivers? I assume VR might be an issue?
Graphics drivers are fine. No idea about VR since I don’t use it personally.
I haven’t tried my VR on Linux because the general consensus of people who have say it’s bad. It’s impressive how far Linux has come in terms of gaming in such a short time. Proton is incredible.
That being said, niche things like VR, or running multiple monitors with different high refresh rates and freesync simultaneously are still rocky.
The biggest issue in see however is multiplayer competitive gaming. There’s no easy path to that in sight due to aggressive anti-cheat software.
As such Linux is currently relegated to mostly single player games that don’t do anything crazy. That’s honestly good enough for a lot of people, but misses the mark with a lot of gamers.
or running multiple monitors with different high refresh rates and freesync simultaneously are still rocky.
Not really an issue anymore with most Wayland compositors (KDE and wlroots, soon to be fixed with Gnome). That’s mainly an X11 specific problem.
You’re attacking this from the wrong angle. Tinkering every few weeks with something new on linux can keep your ADHD occupied ;-)
As someone with ADHD this is exactly what happened to me when I switched to Linux. Continues to keep me occupied 3 months later
As an intermedia Linux user prior to making the jump 2 years ago, if you mainly game on Steam you’re fine. Wine and Proton are mature developed now that most games ‘just work’. Almost all the problems I’ve run into for gaming on Linux have come from trying to do something outside steam (although Blizzard and Activision games seem to be pretty low effort).
Once you get outside that, it’s hit or miss (sometimes good hits. Sometimes bad misses).
What you’ll have to say goodbye to is alphas, betas, and release weekends. They CAN function (I did all 3 Diablo 4 beta weekends last year with no issues at all), and there’s plenty of early access stuff on steam that works fine even though the developers didn’t care about Linux one bit. But usually if you’re reporting issues on opening weekend for a new game, they’re more concerned with making their game launch work for the 95%+ of users instead of the 5%. If you want stuff to ‘just work’ and don’t want to spend your weekend tinkering with waiting for hot fixes or patches, you’ll probably not want to make the switch. Or will want to change your mentality about which games you play and when.
That being said, the experience is constantly getting better. So in a year or two it may be a different story.
I run Pop!_Os. Steam with Proton is a gamechanger. Yet to find a game that doesn’t just work with zero configuration.
Try dual booting so you can test if it just works or if the friction involved is acceptable.
There has been a LOT of progress since the SteamDeck launched. The only real barrier now is multiplayer games that run anticheat. And even some of those have been figured out.
Only thing I’ve found to really not work is head tracking. That’s pretty niche though and I’m expecting someone to figure that out eventually. Almost every game ran no problem.
Like VR you mean? lol my next build is when I want to finally get into VR and try all the games I haven’t been able to play yet :(
No, not VR. Headtracking. The head is tracked with something like a webcam to move the camera.
oooh spiffy.
Wouldn’t you look away from the screen?
You calibrate it so that a small head movement translates to a large camera movement.
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Anecdotally; I am running Manjaro, with a valve index, and other than a few need-to-disconnect-and-reconnect my HMD, it’s been solid and painless.
https://github.com/opentrack/opentrack Used this years ago in Elite without issues.
Yep open track works but not the freetrack protocol which communicates with various games through it.
Might not be called freetrack. Was a month since I used it, and honestly I don’t pay much attention to the names of stuff. But either way it isn’t supported on Linux.
I fucked around with OpenTrack for days but came to no solution other than reverting to windows.
edit: yes, it’s freetrack. When freetrack works I’m instantly leaving.
Actually with ADHD it’s nice. Making something work under Wine (following the instructions from winehq.org) is a bit similar to a game itself
EDIT: Oh, there’s another such comment.
If you have a spare drive, install Pop_OS! on it. Don’t let people let you think that everything is a piece of cake. It can be a little frustrating. A lot of guides jump to “the rest of the fucking owl” or are made on older versions of software. Steam does make it easy but most games are not a matter of simply hitting install because they do not have a native Linux version. You have to right-click on the game, go to Manage, and then set compatibility to Proton (generally although some games need other settings added which you can often find in protondb.com). Is it worth? I like it. There are some basic things that can be annoying like my fingerprint reader not working even though fprintd supports it but I’m too lazy to make a bug report.
I just dual boot Ubuntu and Windows 11 on my laptop. W11 for gaming, Ubuntu for everything else.
Try dual boot. Ideally install both OSs on separate drives and do windows first. Best of luck!
I think you should try it yourself, see if you like it. Who knows, perhaps it’s not actually as troublesome as you think. You can always reinstall windows again anytime you want.
but I have a tendency to jump into a new game for like 3 weeks and then off to the next like the horrid ADHD having fuck that I am
That’s basically why I stopped gaming. Have saved so much money from not filling up my Steam library with games I’ll never finish. lol
No worries. Grab one of these going to a landfill and try it out - its all free!
The best bloodstain in dark souls
I also have ADHD and concerns that my 40p game library would be an issue
I’ll report back on this comment when I find a game that doesn’t just work with Proton, cuz I haven’t tried one yet that didn’t (admittedly I haven’t tried a kernel level anti cheat game)
Even FFXIV, an MMO, works and installed reshade with no issue
Literally the only issue I had installing Linux Mint was my sound card refusing to output sound even though the OS could see it. Every other jack worked, just not my sound card. Fixed it by plugging my phones into a different DAC lol, and the other jacks were fine anyway so it was NBD to begin with
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People still have sound issues with gaming on Linux.
It’s tremendously better, but it’s not guaranteed.
Even in this very thread people are to make certain gaming features work in Linux.
That speaks volumes.
I suggest Mint for new users (and lazy old users like me). All of the simplicity of Ubuntu, without Canonical’s shit
I almost went back to Mint on my last rebuild, but ended up going with Debian + Cinnamon. So far so good.
Not a good choice for people who want to play games. Debian focuses on stability so their packages are typically outdated.
Ah, so them Arch is the way to go.
Any rolling distro that you enjoy is the way to go here I suppose. I’d also hitch my wagon to and arch variant personally but tumbleweed wasn’t terrible either. Just not my mojo.
There’s lots of distros, rolling & LTS based, that have up to date packages.
Ubuntu without snaps or nagging about Ubuntu Pro. I was annoyed with both so I switched over from Ubuntu Mate to Linux Mate and have been enjoying it.
What about Arch? I was told:
mint is garbage. The only thing easier about mint or any of those “noob friendly” distros is the initial install
any time you want to do anything outside of its strict little ecosystem it becomes a massive headache
arch’s wiki is unparalleled
Mint is for people who generally don’t want to do weird shit, which is most new users. If you do, it’s not any harder than doing it on Ubuntu or Debian.
If you want in-depth tinkering, go with Arch. If you want newer packages than a Debian base but not necessarily much tinkering, go with Tumbleweed. You’re just going to have to learn a different package manager for each.
I personally am most comfortable in an environment that has
apt, and I don’t change much on my systems, so Mint is nice. My servers are straight DebianSounds like neckbeard bullshit honestly, Mint is just fine. Arch is “better” if you like tinkering
Even heavy gamers are getting a much better experience on Linux these days (yay Proton!). There are a couple of anti-cheat systems that are still trouble some, but honestly if the developers don’t want to to put in the much smaller amount of effort to make it work on Linux, I don’t want to give them my money.
Sadly I have niche software and I’m a heavy gamer. But now it’s becoming as much of a headache to deal with Windows threatening dumb upgrades that I might as well switch and fight with compatibility.
The more we do it, the more companies will be incentivised to make Linux work.
I’m kind of a power user.
Gaming. Multimedia (Video, Image, Audio). Application development. Web development. Getting into cybersecurity, so using a lot of VMs. Watching videos.
I’ve been making a Linux transition. So far, the stuff I still need to iron out:
-Adobe. Make it work somehow or replace. Can use it on a windows VM 🤷♂️. Happy to replace because fuck em. Working through options.
-VST managers for digital audio workstation. Most aren’t on Linux (spitfire audio, iZotope, IK multimedia, iLok). Haven’t begun trying to make them work. I e heard most can be configured in WINE.
-old MIDI program not working. No audio for MIDI. One program works, another doesn’t 🤔
That’s it. Everything else is working. Big challenges Ive had:
-bluetooth gaming controller took a lot of effort. Works great now.
-Epic games through heroic… Through steam on Linux… Through remote play on my phone… That was difficult. But it works!!
-remote desktop troubleshooting. Works fine now.
Oh and I can’t get windows subsystem for Linux to work in my windows VM on my Linux machine. 🤷♂️
windows subsystem for Linux to work in my windows VM on my Linux machine.
Ignoring the blasphemy of that, the fact it doesn’t work may prove that we are, indeed, living in a simulated universe. lol
- You can use Affinity Designer 1 just fine on linux using bottles, search for it.
- For VSTs you can use this: https://github.com/robbert-vdh/yabridge
Cool! That’ll help for the free VSTs, and paid ones that are poorly licensed/managed, but certain paid VSTs use license managers so you can’t redistribute them.
So like, iLok is a license manager. I might buy a fancy amp simulator vst, I’ll have the rights for it to be on 3 machines. Great. 1 is on my windows machine. It’s verified through ilok, which has Windows and Linux versions.
Now specifically for ilok, they have a web verification system, so there may be a workaround. But not for all ilok VSTs, it depends on the license, so… Well see!
But I have literally >$1000 worth of other VSTs that are similarly managed through the other 3 I mentioned. Like I said, I’ve read that there’s mixed results with them through WINE, so I’m hoping for the best. Still setting up.
Oh and I can’t get windows subsystem for Linux to work in my windows VM on my Linux machine.
You need nested virtualization since it’s a VM within a VM. It’s supported by KVM/libvirt but may need additional config. I believe virtualbox now supports it too, but that it’s a bit undercooked.
My Win10 machine is an audio workstation (DAW) so I am curious how the migration to Linux will work out. Reaper has a Linux port so that should be OK. Hopefully all the VSTs will still work and I’ll have to check on my Focusrite Scarlett. I am not buying a new machine just to run this stuff as it’s just a hobby.
I haven’t powered it up in several years, but I keep an old Windows XP machine with my DAW software on it. I just always ran it offline and moved files with a thumb drive. That said, I never did try a native Linux solution.
Check out Bitwig Studio too if you haven’t already. It can even open Ableton and FL project files.
Niche hardware meaning an asus laptop
Eh, my last Asus ran Linux fine. Though until Ubuntu 18.04 came out, I had to patch the i2c driver and recompile the kernel in order to make the touchpad work lol.
Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, or PopOS
What about Arch? I was told:
mint is garbage. The only thing easier about mint or any of those “noob friendly” distros is the initial install
any time you want to do anything outside of its strict little ecosystem it becomes a massive headache
arch’s wiki is unparalleled
Arch wiki is a useful resource, even for users of other distros. But seriously, do not use Arch Linux unless you’re an experienced Linux user. I have no idea why so many Arch users recommend their distro to new Linux users. Even the Arch wiki tells you it’s not a distro for beginners:
It is targeted at the proficient GNU/Linux user, or anyone with a do-it-yourself attitude who is willing to read the documentation, and solve their own problems.
Arch is cool until it isn’t. If an update breaks your system, then you better know how to fix that by yourself, because the wiki is definitely not the holy grail that some people make it out to be and the community can be toxic as hell. Also, Mint is based on Ubuntu so I would not call that a “little” ecosystem. In the end, each distro has its pros and cons and you have to weight & figure out what fits best for you and your personal needs.
I chose Arch for gaming because SteamOS is based on it. The only issue I had was when ricing. Steam just seemed to work after enabling proton. I’m rather new, but I havent had my system break yet and everyone talks like its inevitable. Idk what to believe but I’m having fun.
Hahaha, right, right.
Most users would get lost on a Linux box, even with the truly great user-friendly distros today. I use a few for testing and things like LXC, and it’s still frustrating at times - and I started with UNIX 35 years ago.
You’re seriously over estimating the capability of most users.
People can’t find controls in Windows when I guide them.
I’m seriously thinking of trying Linux when Windows 11 is forced.
Sorry for the uncalled advice, but if you’re considering it, you might as well try it now. Specially in ways that don’t limit your access to Windows, such as live USB and dual boot (Windows and Linux in the same machine, at the same time). So if you do decide “I’m ditching Windows”, in the future, you’ll have an easier time doing so.
Yup. Don’t wait until the W11 upgrade is imminent. Start it now, so you have a year of experience under your belt and can help your friends switch too when they’re forced to upgrade.
Pretty much all computers have the specs to run linux. Of some flavor.
The only thing stopping me from switching over to Mint is procrastination.
The hardest thing about Linux Mint is installing all of your software. It’s daunting even for very established users.
I moved from Ubuntu to LM a few months ago and I’ve enjoyed it.
Do yourself a favor and do it now. Maybe then you’ll be able to help others move to Linux who haven’t done so before.
I have switched a dell laptop that windows 10 didn’t support to pop os. (It was 7 years old) My whole family has used it for a few years to do everything without any issues. Ironically I have had problems with the Pop OS install on my newer more powerful machine.
Yeah I’m not as much of a fan of PopOS as I thought I’d be. I have it on my daily driver laptop, and every system update seems to introduce some wacky bug/glitch or another. Nothing major, just random small annoyances that usually get fixed in the next update.
It dual boots Pop and Debian, and Debian performs flawlessly. It’s a Thinkpad, so Linux support has always been fantastic. I’m thinking of just dropping the PopOS partition and going back to my original love, Debian.
Then don’t hesitate! You could easily install both side by side, in case you need some Windows exclusive software.
… Linux can run on a potato.
Start trying Linux now using WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux). It’s a great way to dip your toe in the water, and your computer can run it today.
There are multiple distros with live-cd (or usb drive) where you can boot to a desktop environment without installing anything if you want to try them.
Or you could try Tiny11, which is basically Windows 11 but much less Microsofty 😉
Yes, because normal people always throw PCs away when they stop getting security updates.
That’s a lot of new Linux computers.
Once upon a time, updating your hardware every couple of years was essential. Your new hardware was a lot faster for normal use, and everyone benefitted.
Over time, however, people could wait longer between updates, as new hardware didn’t impact daily use all that much.
The powers that were grew displeased, and then decided to force people to update more often. Newer hardware had shorter lifespans, software forced newer hardware, software as a service became king.
The End?
Well you see, they learned their lesson from Windows 7 and having to support it for years longer than they intended to.
They know the same thing will happen for 10, because they are literally forcing a bunch of hardware out, even though all of it can technically run Windows 11 and just don’t have a TPM 2.0 chip. They made this choice, this was a business decision and they know it’s coming.
So what did they learn? To not give it away for free. Now they’re rolling out a program to charge consumers for access to extended updates for Windows 10.[1]
Back in the Windows 7 days, they only did that for corporations, extended updates with a cost attached. Now you, the consumer, get the joy of paying for these updates as well.
Not only are they purposefully creating trash, they’re also squeezing people for money in the process.
They’re doing exactly what they did with Windows 7, this time they just plan to charge you for the convenience.
Stay classy, Microsoft.
“Individuals or organizations who elect to continue using Windows 10 after support ends on October 14, 2025, will have the option of enrolling their PCs into a paid ESU subscription.” ↩︎
You forgot the “best” part, which is that requiring TPM 2.0 is purely self-serving for Microsoft in that it serves no purpose but to make it more difficult to run non-Windows OSs on the hardware in the future.
Nobody needs a TPM except for the copyright cartel trying to destroy computer owners’ property rights.
Oh I mean, I thought that was implied, but yeah, go off about it, it fucking sucks!
EDIT: In response to your edit. ACKSHUALLY the TPM requirement is a big deal for corporations, because it does help increase corporate security. The thing is, the average user doesn’t actually need that extra security so much and will likely never use it so making it a requirement for the consumer-level Windows is abject bullshit.
ACKSHUALLY the TPM requirement is a big deal for corporations,
Like I said, “nobody.” Corporations aren’t people; they don’t count.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=FxUsRedO4UY
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I upgraded my CPU in preparation for 11 but have since installed Linux instead. It seems like you’re saying simply having a TPM makes it harder to use other OSs?
TPM doesn’t make running linux harder. People just have their biases and will happily spew BS as long as it goes with their biases.
I don’t know why, but your post made me question if TPM 2.0 expansions outside the processor are a thing. Turns out they are as long as your board supports them. I was just able to get one for mine for $25.
If you have 8th gen intel or ryzen 3000 series (maybe 2k but not 1k) emulation is built into the CPU so you don’t need it.
I still have a 4th Gen devil’s canyon in my main pc. It still outperforms most current gen chips apparently, so I plan on running it til it burns the house down.
Yep, before I upgraded recently, my motherboard had a port for TPM, but it was only able to support TPM 1.0, so it was still SOL.
Old box is now running Linux and a handful of network services.
I honestly don’t have an issue paying for updates of EOL software. But I also grew up in a time when that was normal. I remember paying for iOS 3.
It says it’ll be free for Window 365 users. Ie. 70 bucks and that includes office.
Obviously it’s not great, but it’s better than adobe.
Windows 95 cost two hundred 30 years ago.
Consumers can also pay for extended Windows 7 updates, of course. I also don’t see why just that (consumers can also pay) part is bad and much worse than a stupid requirement to force users to pay.
I installed linux. I only use browser and vlc and it works great. I am not buying a new machine when old one works just fine.
Again, Install Linux, get rid of Microsoft shit.
For us Linux users it’s just a fire sale. Diet cheap PCs incoming.
None of these PCs need to go to landfill. Linux
Tell that companies who would have to convert their software and / or re-train their employees.
Realistically, most companies replace their PCs every few years. So there are probably relatively few machines running in offices that don’t meet the requirements.
In my experience it is more like every few decades. There’s still PCs running XP or even something more ancient. If a company swapped their systems during the whole “W10 is the only OS you’ll ever need” period, then they might be fucked.
Obviously depends on the company but well run companies shouldn’t have any problems unless they have very specialised machinery but those probably already run Win XP or some shit.
And no company should seriously expect free software support for the end of time.
Companies can get support for much longer though. They won’t be affected by this issue as much as people think.
Eventually when Microsoft will go too far, this is what will happen. Companies already have to do all this training, and given the right OS and IT support there’s plenty of Windows like solutions that would be immediately intuitive for people who just browse and use a few specific programs
Ebay is going to be great for a few years though
You’re right, none need to go…
…but most people are too tech illiterate to even know there’s an option outside windows. Hell, I dated a girl who though windows was the operating system on apple devices (she used the term windows and operating system interchangeably)
Most of those PC are business. People will continue using windows 10 past that date.
Sounds to me like an opportunity for Linux and Linux derivatives.
Windows 11 can suck my stinky cock. Windows will successfully force my LAZY ass to Linux. I am already testing the waters with my laptop.
Hello, it’s me, a landfill
Those systems are going to be dirt cheap Linux boxes in the very near future
Or at least a couple will be for me
Cool, a prime opportunity to scalp even more old machines by the end of the decade once they become valuable.
